Belt speeds

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foamy
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Belt speeds

Post by foamy » Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:03 pm

This is something that's been niggling at me ever since 0.17 changed the belt speeds from the old (ugly) 13.33x item/s multiples into 15x multiples. The new change to whole unit flow is nice, but it's pointed up the fact that the unit speeds selected are ones that don't subdivide readily (excepting fast belts).

The reason for this that 15's only factors are 3 and 5, and 45's only factors are multiples of those (3, 5, 9, 15). Fast belts are in a much better place because, as a multiple of 6, they have a huge number of factors: 2, 3, 5, 6, 10, and 15 are all there.

This means that red belt, much more so than either yellow or blue belts, lends itself to simple assembler and recipe math. Since belts are the earliest and most basic form of transport the game provides I think that easy factorization is a very useful thing to have, particularly given the simple ratios in many of the other early-game recipes.

So I propose a tweak:

Yellow belts to go to 12 items/sec; red to 24 items/sec, and blue to *48* items/sec.

This I think accomplishes a few things:

First, it makes belts throughput way easier to balance out without needing to resort to a spreadsheet even early. Also means foundry crafting times can stop having that stupid .2 in them.
Second, it makes each tier of belt twice as fast as the previous, maintaining a consistent ratio and allowing for neater merges and splits. When the .17 changes were first made some people requested this but were told going to 60 items/sec caused graphics issues; I hope that is avoidable here since the blue belt speed increase is minor.
Third, how many tiles a belt moves in a second becomes instantly obvious: 1.5 for yellow, 3 for red, 6 for blue.

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Ranakastrasz
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Re: Belt speeds

Post by Ranakastrasz » Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:08 pm

I would point out that 13.33 doesn't subdivide evenly either.

But yes, I could get behind those changes, if only because doubling speed per tier feels better. I use calculators for everything anyway after all.
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BlueTemplar
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Re: Belt speeds

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:17 pm

It's even "worse" than that, since belts have two lanes, each going at a speed of 7.5 items/s !
leadraven wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:10 am
1 pixel / tick x 60 ticks / second x 1 item / 8 pixel = 7.5 item / second on 1 lane.
(From the thread suggesting to change belts to be 16 items/s :
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68569 )

https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-276
Image

Image

After investigation, it seems that, in 0.17, the only possible lane speeds are multiples of 1/8 pixel per tick = 0.9375 items/s or 1.875 items/s for 2 lanes.
Any other speeds are going to be truncated down to these... (and 15 is the first integer on that list)
viewtopic.php?p=423472#p423472

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Re: Belt speeds

Post by foamy » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:33 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:17 pm
After investigation, it seems that, in 0.17, the only possible lane speeds are multiples of 1/8 pixel per tick = 0.9375 items/s or 1.875 items/s for 2 lanes.
Any other speeds are going to be truncated down to these... (and 15 is the first integer on that list)
viewtopic.php?p=423472#p423472
See, this I don't fully understand (and didn't when I saw it alluded to in the FF about the belt change to 15/30/45), because there's no particular reason why an item's logical position on a belt needs to correspond to an actual display pixel. Why not declare belts to be, I dunno, 96 * 60 slots across, and truncate back out of that to your graphic display pixel positions? It's math you need to do anyway since Factorio has a zoom function. The logical positions of items on a belt should be able to be made whatever arbitrary number is convenient.

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Re: Belt speeds

Post by Klonan » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:48 pm

foamy wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:33 pm
The logical positions of items on a belt should be able to be made whatever arbitrary number is convenient.
It can be any number we like, and we determined that 1/256 of a tile is enough for what belts need to do

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Re: Belt speeds

Post by Vansaar95 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:29 pm

I have only one request: to make the speed of the blue belt equal to two red ...

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Re: Belt speeds

Post by coppercoil » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:23 am

Vansaar95 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:29 pm
I have only one request: to make the speed of the blue belt equal to two red ...
There's a mod for it: Double Speed Belts.

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Re: Belt speeds

Post by foamy » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:07 pm

Vansaar95 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:29 pm
I have only one request: to make the speed of the blue belt equal to two red ...
This'd do that.

It'd also be convenient for the purposes of train loading and unloading; one of the advantages of the old blue belts at 40 was that it was very easy to figure out how long it'd take X blue belts to drain a wagonload, since a wagon had 40 stacks: It was just the stack size, in seconds, divided by the number of belts.

That could be gotten back by moving the train wagons to have 48 stacks, matching a steel chest, which would then allow easy calculations for *all* tiers of belt since they'd just be power-of-two multiples of each other. It might require a tweak of either barrel stack size or fluid wagon capacity, I guess.

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