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I think the game would make much more sense if evolution was driven by pollution *reaching* the nests and nests destroyed, without the current increases from "produced even if it does not reach nests" and "time passed". Of course, that would mean that evolution would rise quite a bit more than now if pollution reached the nests.

Then and only then could *all* players enjoy Factorio without having to tweak the settings. The current model assumes that you are in a rush to build or do things manually in order to get things done. But without the time pressure players that like doing things right and those still learning can take their time, change designs, and still be able to control pollution and only have to deal with the occasional unevolved expansion party.

zOldBulldog wrote: ↑

Sat May 04, 2019 11:42 am

I think the game would make much more sense if evolution was driven by pollution *reaching* the nests and nests destroyed, without the current increases from "produced even if it does not reach nests" and "time passed". Of course, that would mean that evolution would rise quite a bit more than now if pollution reached the nests.

I totally dig this. I've always been bothered that aliens from the other side of the planet could get pissed by my pollution despite the fact they never ever had a chance to get close to detecting it.

zOldBulldog wrote: ↑

Sat May 04, 2019 11:42 am

I think the game would make much more sense if evolution was driven by pollution *reaching* the nests and nests destroyed, without the current increases from "produced even if it does not reach nests" and "time passed".

I like this insomuch as it's logical and consistent, but from a gameplay perspective I feel that those two mechanics alone would be insufficient (unless tuned to a ridiculous degree); starting about mid-game I usually find my base perimeter expanding far faster than my pollution coverage, so I worry that, under the influence of just 1 evolution factor (nests destroyed), I'd find myself steamrolling through nests of hapless medium biters all day. That, or it's so sensitive that I see a comically Pop-eye-esque inflation of biter stature over the course of a clearing run or two.

Theikkru wrote: ↑

Sat May 04, 2019 1:36 pm

zOldBulldog wrote: ↑

Sat May 04, 2019 11:42 am

I think the game would make much more sense if evolution was driven by pollution *reaching* the nests and nests destroyed, without the current increases from "produced even if it does not reach nests" and "time passed".

I like this insomuch as it's logical and consistent, but from a gameplay perspective I feel that those two mechanics alone would be insufficient (unless tuned to a ridiculous degree); starting about mid-game I usually find my base perimeter expanding far faster than my pollution coverage, so I worry that, under the influence of just 1 evolution factor (nests destroyed), I'd find myself steamrolling through nests of hapless medium biters all day. That, or it's so sensitive that I see a comically Pop-eye-esque inflation of biter stature over the course of a clearing run or two.

Well, do remember that there is significant evolution from destroying nests. I don't think you'd steamroll them.

In 0.17 I barely setup my red/green/blue circuits builds... and the biters are already at 95% evolution. I think the only thing that kept me alive in my current world is that I've been playing Railworld, so there are no scouting expansion parties. I think that most of that evolution is from me clearing nests.

What I noticed one game is I never got attacked for bloody ages, I didn’t research much at all while I got setup, as I was half way through green science research I got hit. It made me think, so they leave you alone until you get to a point in the research? So I experimented on deathworld, however I turned up the bugs to maximum evolution and everything. Same thing, 1 hour in and no attack, started green science, half way through I got attacked. So found an auto save from 10 mins before and started green science right away, and got hit soon after.
Makes me think the first attack only happens once you start green science research. So even on a deathworld game, spend the time to wall up, turret up and get prepared before clicking green science research

I probably should mention that in the month since my last post a new mod popped up: Next Gen Evolution.

The mod lets you control how evolution happens by playing with both the vanilla and mod's settings.

You can:

- Make biters behave as I hoped (pollution cloud *touching* biters + destroying nests) by setting vanilla Time and Pollution factors to zero (plus maybe increasing the Destroy factor) and using the mod's defaults.

- You can create further penalties for damaging trees and various other factors.

In other words, you can make it ecological, easier or harder... all at the player's choice. Frankly, this is what vanilla should have been from day 1.

did u even try the map a second time or did you already wine too much about the lost 15 minutes and the alarming huge biter attack wipping up ur ass?

Mikehunt wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:47 pm

What I noticed one game is I never got attacked for bloody ages, I didn’t research much at all while I got setup, as I was half way through green science research I got hit. It made me think, so they leave you alone until you get to a point in the research? So I experimented on deathworld, however I turned up the bugs to maximum evolution and everything. Same thing, 1 hour in and no attack, started green science, half way through I got attacked. So found an auto save from 10 mins before and started green science right away, and got hit soon after.
Makes me think the first attack only happens once you start green science research. So even on a deathworld game, spend the time to wall up, turret up and get prepared before clicking green science research

One thing worth mentioning is that biters only attack when your pollution cloud reaches them. So if you aren't using many resources (eg only red science, or maybe even no science running), you probably aren't making much pollution, so it doesn't spread very far. (Red science needs 3 plates per flask). Once green science starts running you pollution output probably triples, and pollution will spread further, potentially reaching one or more nests and triggering attacks. (Green science is 7 plates per flask, so 10 plates for one green plus one red flask).