Behemoth worms don't seem to differ from Big worms

[Pi-C]

Using the boat from the cargo ships mod, I've seen some behemoth and big worms from a safe distance while exploring the map. However, it looked like they have the same stats: both have 750 health points, and the resistances are identical as well. I guess you just inserted new graphics for the behemoths but didn't get around yet to change their stats. Or do they have some specialties that aren't shown in the description?

[Pi-C]

A picture tells more than a thousand words … according to the people who sell pictures.

Stats Behemoth vs. Big Worm

stats.png (50.13 KiB) Viewed 5319 times

[V453000]

Their range and damage is significantly higher. They could get more health just to make it clearly different I guess.

[Pi-C]

Their range and damage is significantly higher. They could get more health just to make it clearly different I guess.

They should get more health and resistances -- after all, there must be an obvious reason they are called "Behemoth". Also, consider the stats of biters and spitters (I pulled these from the wiki).

1. Big vs. Behemoth biter
   • Health: 375 vs. 3000
   • Damage: 30 vs. 90
   • Attack Speed: 1.7/s vs. 1.2/s
   • Damage Type: Physical (both)
   • Range: 1.5 (both)
   • Resistances:
     • Explosion: 0/10% vs. 12/10%
     • Physical: 8/10% vs. 12/10%
2. Big vs. Behemoth spitter:
   • Health: 200 vs. 1500
   • Damage: 30 vs. 50
   • Attack Speed: 0.46/s (both)
   • Damage Type: Acid (both)
   • Range: 15 vs. 16
   • Resistances:
     • Explosion: 0/15% vs. 0/30%

Here, the behemoth versions have about seven to eight times more health than the big ones. Behemoth biters attack a bit slower than big ones, but both behemoth biters and spitters have significantly higher resistances than their big counterparts. Actually, the complete lines (small, medium, big, behemoth) of all enemies are marked by increase in health, damage, range, and resistances -- why should it be completely different for worms?

I understand that big worms are ferocious creatures already and giving behemoth worms 7.5 or 8 (or even just 6) times more health than big ones would make them invincible for anything other than artillery or nukes. So how about giving them a soft spot: they could have increased resistance against explosions, but could be more vulnerable to something else. Also, they probably should have a decreased attack speed (there is precedence for this, see biters).

Well, I guess I'll curse myself for starting this thread once I will meet my first Behemoth worm in combat, but I can't help it. That is just my OCD: everything has to be consistent!

[orzelek]

I can only add +1 here.

When I added Behemots to RSO and went around to check if they spawn correctly (in god controller.. not crazy ) I was very dissapointed. Especially that I had bobs enemies and base game behemot worm was much worse then his gigantinc one. And for it's size it's hp seemed really small - especially with behemot biter/spitter around.

[Ranakastrasz]

Huh. Didn't enemy damage and range displays get added? I could have sworn I saw biters with 7 damage.

But yea, even with more damage and range, if they can't take any more of a hit they aren't that impressive.

[orzelek]

Huh. Didn't enemy damage and range displays get added? I could have sworn I saw biters with 7 damage.

But yea, even with more damage and range, if they can't take any more of a hit they aren't that impressive.

Worsm are one thing that has no damage displayed I think. Biters/spitters do.

[Koub]

Some things are displayed in editor mode, when you hover on the unit list interface.
Others are displayed when you hover above the units placed on the map, once out of the editor.

[theolderbeholder]

They could get more health just to make it clearly different I guess.

Great, just fucking lovely great.
Guys, thank you so much for bringing this up...
</sarcasm>

Ah well, I used nukes anyway as the big worms outrange the regular rocket launcher.

[Ranakastrasz]

Ah well, I used nukes anyway as the big worms outrange the regular rocket launcher.

Wait seriously? even with the range at 36, it outranges them? That is rather a lot of range. What kind of range do Behemoths have?

[theolderbeholder]

48

Don´t get me wrong, we were seriously spoiled by .17:
belt immunity alone is more than I could have asked for, then we got a buff to mining productivity, the quickbar, disable roboports... it is more than fair to give something to the targets biters as well.

[Ranakastrasz]

48

Don´t get me wrong, we were seriously spoiled by .17:
belt immunity alone is more than I could have asked for, then we got a buff to mining productivity, the quickbar, disable roboports... it is more than fair to give something to the targets biters as well.

Give something to the.... Are even listening to yourself? Have you seen the new deathworlds? Or the sheer number of biters they throw at you now? People find that they need 3x the defences to hold the things off. They don't need any more help.
(Not entirely serious)

[BlueTemplar]

Aww, and I hoped that they could duel with unupgraded automatic artillery (range 224)...

[Ranakastrasz]

Aww, and I hoped that they could duel with unupgraded automatic artillery (range 224)...

Hmm. I wonder if that would work, even with mods. I have no idea if it was even this game, but I want to say sniper turrets suffered from not being willing to target units outside some number of chunks from their location, so their range wasn't working.

But with artillery being added, and not hearing about that for a long time, I suspect you could totally make artillery worms. I can see it now. ArtilleryWorm spawns. Spits a huge glob of acid. 30 seconds later, lands on your base, melts your wall. Then it sends another blob. And another. Slowly burning away from closest to furthest. Robots desperately try to rebuild but get caught in the acid and melt. You run over to try to fend off the wave that is launched to take advantage of the hole, and even after you manage that, have an epic mission to undertake, deep into biter territory, to take down the monster. Happily it has a minimum range, and only attacks buildings, but the sheer amount of biters and spawenrs and lesser worms makes it a challenge.
With it finally destroyed, you look back at your base, and see puddles of acid, and little else.

Or something like that, I dunno. Sounds gamebreaking and unfun. On the other hand, anti-building specific worms would specifically counter turret creeping. Could be nifty. Gotta clear out the area before expanding, and any turrets you use would get bombarded while you did so. And the power poles. And the walls. And the roboport. Basically, no buildings, just you and your robot companions. Unless you want puddles of acid even more everywhere than normal...

This got off topic.

[BlueTemplar]

Sounds gamebreaking and unfun.

Hey, if you can't be bothered to deny expansion parties to set up their artillery in range of your base at 90%+ Evolution, you have it coming !

And setting your own artillery (+radar?) a bit outside your base *would* counter it...

[BlueTemplar]

On the other hand, anti-building specific worms would specifically counter turret creeping. Could be nifty. Gotta clear out the area before expanding, and any turrets you use would get bombarded while you did so. And the power poles. And the walls. And the roboport. Basically, no buildings, just you and your robot companions. Unless you want puddles of acid even more everywhere than normal...

Sure, as long as they have enough DPS/range to kill your turrets faster than you can repair them...
Those poor Medium Worms didn't :
viewtopic.php?p=407062#p407062

[SyncViews]

On the other hand, anti-building specific worms would specifically counter turret creeping. Could be nifty. Gotta clear out the area before expanding, and any turrets you use would get bombarded while you did so. And the power poles. And the walls. And the roboport. Basically, no buildings, just you and your robot companions. Unless you want puddles of acid even more everywhere than normal...

Sure, as long as they have enough DPS/range to kill your turrets faster than you can repair them...
Those poor Medium Worms didn't :
viewtopic.php?p=407062#p407062

Faster than repairing them is hardly an issue, a group of behemoth worms (not unusual in large biter bases) already do that to laser turrets. But, they can't kill turrets faster than you can build them. Turrets are cheap, so a few losses against a behemoth base isn't a big deal.

I did some testing relating to an enemy faction using the same turrets as the player, to really stop turret creep without any other factor (e.g. more effective repair and respawning on the enemy side), the defending turrets need to be killing the player ones within the unfolding animation time.

Hmm. I wonder if that would work, even with mods. I have no idea if it was even this game, but I want to say sniper turrets suffered from not being willing to target units outside some number of chunks from their location, so their range wasn't working.

But with artillery being added, and not hearing about that for a long time, I suspect you could totally make artillery worms. I can see it now. ArtilleryWorm spawns. Spits a huge glob of acid. 30 seconds later, lands on your base, melts your wall. Then it sends another blob. And another. Slowly burning away from closest to furthest. Robots desperately try to rebuild but get caught in the acid and melt. You run over to try to fend off the wave that is launched to take advantage of the hole, and even after you manage that, have an epic mission to undertake, deep into biter territory, to take down the monster. Happily it has a minimum range, and only attacks buildings, but the sheer amount of biters and spawenrs and lesser worms makes it a challenge.
With it finally destroyed, you look back at your base, and see puddles of acid, and little else.

Or something like that, I dunno. Sounds gamebreaking and unfun. On the other hand, anti-building specific worms would specifically counter turret creeping. Could be nifty. Gotta clear out the area before expanding, and any turrets you use would get bombarded while you did so. And the power poles. And the walls. And the roboport. Basically, no buildings, just you and your robot companions. Unless you want puddles of acid even more everywhere than normal...

I tested giving enemy forces artillery turrets. They target only certain player buildings such as turrets and radar, similar to normal worms and biter defence. It also takes something like up to 15 seconds for them to engage a new target when idle.

It stops laser and gun turret creep to an extent, because it is hundreds of tiles and you can't maintain a line to take out biters. Although the biters don't actively attack power poles or any other infrastructure needed to do it, they do go after the player character and construction bots, and once aggroed normally destroy the roboport so you can't easily creep remotely just by placing blueprints.

A player with say stacked exoskeletons can still do it easily, running a power line and placing expendable laser turrets (best to use substations, or medium poles, they tend not to get destroyed when the turret is targetted). But they could also just maintain the max destroyer capsule count or many other things. Like wise player artillery easily works, even if the AI matches the players insane range, that 15 seconds is plenty of time, and rail artillery is never even targeted.

[bobucles]

I tested giving enemy forces artillery turrets. They target only certain player buildings such as turrets and radar, similar to normal worms and biter defence. It also takes something like up to 15 seconds for them to engage a new target when idle.

Neat! It sounds like a fun idea to try making behemoth worms a form of Biter artillery weapon. They spawn far enough from home to not crush players early on, and they punish anything that dares hold still. The "big, slow" theme of artillery promotes mobile warfare and would punish turret creep very well.

The only real problem is what if alien expansions get to spawn artillery, but by that point we can solve it with our own, superior artillery.