Tutorial Feedback: Too confusing and hard for a new player

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JareX
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Tutorial Feedback: Too confusing and hard for a new player

Post by JareX »

I decided to let a friend play the campaign without helping him to see his reaction (he is 23 years old and is used to more modern games) here is the result:


1) It was a disaster
2) The first part had the following issues
a) Basic mechanics not explained
- Friend didn’t know how to open the inventory (missed intruction)
- Had trouble using left or right click (at first he though the click moved the player), then the different ways of interacting with object with left click, right click or ctrl+click confused the hell out of him
b) Escape key did not cancel actions nor clear hand
- This was even a surprise for me (i have 350 hours of gameplay), and both for me and my friend pressing "Q" for this makes no sense
c) Compilatron problems
- Most of the time my friend missed what the compilatron had to say because the text was too small or because he was busy trying to figure out something different
d) Confusing interaction with objects
- Some objects were minable, others had to be opened to loot, others had to be rebuilt, etc. My friend ended up mashing buttons into each building in desperation of not knowing what to do.
3) The second part (with bitters) was even worst
a) My friend died at leat 5 times trying to defend the base, I couldn’t resist and decided to help. And I died too... I was ashamed.
b) I won't give more details about this because there is already a thread for that


My suggestions are:
1) Make another level, prior to the first one explaining even more basic stuff. Like controls, movement and player interaction with objects and shortcuts.
2) Explain the pollution mechanic, because this was the main reason we both failed against the bitters
3) Make the bitters a lot easier
4) Let be "esc" instead of "Q" the default key for clearing cursor

Thanks for this great game

christian
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Re: Tutorial Feedback: Too confusing and hard for a new player

Post by christian »

You mean make the biter the same toughness as before? You know that I've played many many maps and I've never lost a single game. I mean if that's the kind of game you want, maybe the developers should add difficulty levels, like in Civizilation. There's the Chieftain, Warlord, Prince, Deity, etc. and a special level called Beginner. That way everyone's happy. Before starting a game the player can make a conscious decision about how hard he wants to play. If they get beat hard and pounded into the ground in normal difficulty they'll think of 2 things, either 1) I should try again and try harder or 2) I should lower my difficulty setting.

It'll be somewhat of a badge of honor and something to keep pushing and playing the game is by going higher and higher in difficulty. Like in Civilization I used to play in 3rd level difficulty, then 4th, etc. Now I play 6th level of difficulty and I win about 25% of the time and that's what's fun for me. If I play the game at 3rd level difficulty it's just so boring.

JareX
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Re: Tutorial Feedback: Too confusing and hard for a new player

Post by JareX »

christian wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:32 pm
You mean make the biter the same toughness as before? You know that I've played many many maps and I've never lost a single game. I mean if that's the kind of game you want, maybe the developers should add difficulty levels, like in Civizilation. There's the Chieftain, Warlord, Prince, Deity, etc. and a special level called Beginner. That way everyone's happy. Before starting a game the player can make a conscious decision about how hard he wants to play. If they get beat hard and pounded into the ground in normal difficulty they'll think of 2 things, either 1) I should try again and try harder or 2) I should lower my difficulty setting.

It'll be somewhat of a badge of honor and something to keep pushing and playing the game is by going higher and higher in difficulty. Like in Civilization I used to play in 3rd level difficulty, then 4th, etc. Now I play 6th level of difficulty and I win about 25% of the time and that's what's fun for me. If I play the game at 3rd level difficulty it's just so boring.
I don't think thats what the campaign should be about.

This game is extremly daunting for new players. Veterans already know how to play and they have no problems with new mechanics.

The campaign should be focused on allowing a first timer to get an idea of what factorio is about and learn the basic mechanic in a streamlined and fun way

Devs can always add "challenge" modes after that.

But I think is extremely important for the game future to have a proper campaign designed for new players.

christian
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Re: Tutorial Feedback: Too confusing and hard for a new player

Post by christian »

JareX wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:09 pm
I don't think thats what the campaign should be about.
I think what you mean is that the tutorial mode should be easier. Not sure what you mean by "campaign".

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Tutorial Feedback: Too confusing and hard for a new player

Post by BlueTemplar »

JareX wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:51 pm
I decided to let a friend play the campaign without helping him to see his reaction (he is 23 years old and is used to more modern games) here is the result:
What do you mean by "modern" ?
- Had trouble using left or right click (at first he though the click moved the player)
Uh, AFAIK, WASD for movement controls is still pretty common in games (even 2D ones!).
And IIRC it's the first thing being explained
(and IIRC you have to move out the starting 4 tiles before the tutorial continues, how did he do that ?).
I'm not sure what can be done about that - Factorio, like any software, assumes some basic familiarity with computers/other software...
a) Basic mechanics not explained
[...] (missed intruction)

c) Compilatron problems
- Most of the time my friend missed what the compilatron had to say because the text was too small or because he was busy trying to figure out something different
This seems to be the crux of the issue.
(But doesn't Compilatron keep repeating stuff until you do it ?)
Is it too easy to Tab through those that can be tabbed through ?
- Had trouble using left or right click (at first he though the click moved the player), then the different ways of interacting with object with left click, right click or ctrl+click confused the hell out of him
Left click is extremely basic, see above.
Maybe push back the introduction of ctrl+click ?
b) Escape key did not cancel actions nor clear hand
- This was even a surprise for me (i have 350 hours of gameplay), and both for me and my friend pressing "Q" for this makes no sense
4) Let be "esc" instead of "Q" the default key for clearing cursor
What actions ?
It makes sense from the point of view of efficiency... teaching to use Escape even if it was enabled for clearing cursor would be bad... but not sure how to best teach Q for that...
d) Confusing interaction with objects
- Some objects were minable, others had to be opened to loot, others had to be rebuilt, etc. My friend ended up mashing buttons into each building in desperation of not knowing what to do.
Well, the tutorial is trying to cover most of the core interactions... What can be done about that ?
1) Make another level, prior to the first one explaining even more basic stuff. Like controls, movement and player interaction with objects and shortcuts.
First part of the first level is *supposed* to be that...
2) Explain the pollution mechanic, because this was the main reason we both failed against the bitters
I'm not even sure that the pollution mechanic is being *used* in part 2 !
(It seems scripted.)

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CDarklock
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Re: Tutorial Feedback: Too confusing and hard for a new player

Post by CDarklock »

JareX wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:51 pm
I decided to let a friend play the campaign without helping him to see his reaction (he is 23 years old and is used to more modern games)
My psychic powers tell me this person plays mobile games.

Most of the problems you mention here are problems faced by someone playing their first KBM game. Confusion over left/right click, in particular, is something I pretty much never see unless someone is accustomed to a touchscreen. But the same problems you describe here are common to console-only players who move to a PC game.

I'm not sure this is someone who would voluntarily choose to play Factorio.

EDIT:
BlueTemplar wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:38 am
not sure how to best teach Q for that...
Ever play Minecraft?

Q = drop. E = inventory. Shift + Left Click = move stack.

Factorio was clearly designed by people who were familiar and comfortable with Minecraft.

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