0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

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kaiflife
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0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by kaiflife »

I have 32 Pumpjacks near my base, and with max speed and huge mining bonus, I do not need to take new oilfields. My pipes are always full of oil. I think it must be nerfed
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bobingabout
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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by bobingabout »

32 is a lot of pumpjacks. I think it was 0.13 that changed the map generation, and it changed oil from appearing in patches of 3 to 5, maybe 10 maximum if you were lucky in 0.12, to every patch having a dozen or more oil patches in it in 0.13. This is more of a game breaking change than the speed of each pump.
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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by kaiflife »

bobingabout wrote:32 is a lot of pumpjacks. I think it was 0.13 that changed the map generation, and it changed oil from appearing in patches of 3 to 5, maybe 10 maximum if you were lucky in 0.12, to every patch having a dozen or more oil patches in it in 0.13. This is more of a game breaking change than the speed of each pump.
This was acceptable in 0.14. When they were depleted to 0,1 (like 1,0 in 0.15)
But now with total depletion they give around 2,3/s - 3,2/s. And with mining bonus It became ridiculous.
Perhaps presets affects on value of maximum depletion?

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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by Aeternus »

Judging from the screeny, you've tailored the oil field specifically so that you could beaconize it, and you've got top tier speed mods in there. In other words, you're at endgame and you've tailored the map. Doesn't really represent the average game. Also, about a megawatt of energy to generate 3/s oil? At that rate I think you'll have a net loss in energy, if you're converting all that oil into fuel...
No nerf needed based on this particular example, if you ask me.

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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by kaiflife »

Aeternus wrote:Also, about a megawatt of energy to generate 3/s oil?
3/s is just a basic speed with no moduls, bacons and mining bonuses. And with uranium, energy is not a problem.
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My mistake is that at 0.15 I made all the resources rare, but big and rich, including oil...

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bobingabout
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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by bobingabout »

kaiflife wrote:
bobingabout wrote:32 is a lot of pumpjacks. I think it was 0.13 that changed the map generation, and it changed oil from appearing in patches of 3 to 5, maybe 10 maximum if you were lucky in 0.12, to every patch having a dozen or more oil patches in it in 0.13. This is more of a game breaking change than the speed of each pump.
This was acceptable in 0.14. When they were depleted to 0,1 (like 1,0 in 0.15)
But now with total depletion they give around 2,3/s - 3,2/s. And with mining bonus It became ridiculous.
Perhaps presets affects on value of maximum depletion?
0.1/s in 0.14 changing to 1.0/s in 0.15 results in NO CHANGE, why? EVERYTHING to do with fluids was multiplied by 10 in the transition to 0.15, so you might be producing 10x the amount of oil, but you're consuming 10x as well.

but I still persist in my assertion that the issue is too many oil wells, rather than each being too powerful.
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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by BlakeMW »

bobingabout wrote: 0.1/s in 0.14 changing to 1.0/s in 0.15 results in NO CHANGE, why? EVERYTHING to do with fluids was multiplied by 10 in the transition to 0.15, so you might be producing 10x the amount of oil, but you're consuming 10x as well.
That's not how the change worked: it went from a minimum of 0.1/s, to a minimum of 20% of the original output.

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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by bobingabout »

Back in 0.12, the change you suggested was needed, as you wouldn't get enough oil. however the combination of more patches on the map, and the higher minimum together means.... too much oil.
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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by PacifyerGrey »

I think its a mistake to judge oil satisfaction only from megabase perspective where you have access to T3 modules and beacons. Looking from a normal game perspective oil is fine I think.


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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by Shokubai »

Troll is troll

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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by Syrchalis »

Sure, if you have 440% Productivity combined with 12 Speed Beacons then a depleted oil well is generating what?

2*(1+4,4)*8=86,4 oil per second which equals to a 864% yield oil patch.

Seems pretty okay for 6,76MW of energy, especially considering what raw materials 220x mining productivity must have cost.

But in all honesty, the only reason this is so ridiculous is because of way too much productivity research done. It's like saying "hey let's nerf oil because when you play for 200 hours and spend millions of iron/copper on productivity research it gets eventually a bit ridiculous".

I mean, do the same for someone who is NOT at rockets yet. Aka 15 productivity research and thus 30% productivity:
2*(1+0,3)*8=20,8

Oh look, it's just a 208% yield oil patch now, nothing out of the ordinary, especially considering you're using the same 6,76MW of energy on it (pump 1MW, 12 beacons 5,76MW). Still sounds so good?

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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by BlakeMW »

Everyone who is focusing on the productivity research completely misses the point: the miners also benefit from that productivity and it's the proportion of miners to pumpjacks that is relevant. He has 19k miners to 32 pumpjacks, a ratio of 1 pumpjack to 60 miners.

In my current deathworld game - just before rocket - I have 440 miners to 24 pumpjacks, a ratio of 1 pumpjack to 18 miners. I've basically exploited all the oil within the area from which I've exploited iron, I'm using eff1 modules in both miners and pumpjacks, and am much more limited by the iron than the oil - I'm swimming in oil, so definitely you get lots of oil in 0.15. (altough to be fair, before doing a major expansionist campaign into biter territory and claiming a large oil field together with more iron, I did set up coal liq to make up a petroleum shortfall, also I am using prod3 extensively in the refining and cracking, whereas I'm not using prod3 in furnaces - so I'm getting about a 40% boost to my petroleum products over the ore products)

Now I'm not saying that's wrong: I think it's nice that you can get enough oil without resorting to speedjacking. If someone chooses to speedjack rather than build more pumpjacks that's their choice, I don't think you should have to speedjack to get enough oil but I can't see a problem with the option existing. Is it too much? *shrug*, that really depends on whether the devs want oil to be progress limiting or not, there are resources like coal and stone that you can easily leave heaps of it on the ground and that doesn't seem to be a problem. Since the devs added coal liq they probably don't want us to be limited by petroleum.

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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by Kelderek »

It's an infinite resource that the OP set to big and rich. I don't see a problem here. Don't forget to factor in RNG too, his oil fields may have had an above average yield for his map relative to distance from the starting area due to RNG.

I would be more interested to see numbers from multiple people running at normal settings before I would consider there to be too much oil in 0.15.

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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by Nasabot »

I agree. Oil is too abundant (on normal settings) with the new patch. If you start and have a medium sized oil patch in your vicinity and also use light oil for fuel cube it feels about right. However, in most cases there are 2-3 medium(or even big) sized oilpatches nearby and you also dont have to run on fuel cubes.

In my opinion the minimum output should be reverted to 1/s instead of 2/s. To counterbalance this "coal to oil" could be slightly buffed.

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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by BlakeMW »

Having played more I still can't agree oil is too abundant.

One thing it is is exceptionally dependent on RNG, since there is no oil guaranteed in the starting area it is highly random whether you get no oil at all, or a giant patch that will last you "forever". Only once you've expanded about 5x larger area than the starting area does the true relative abundance start to be felt.

In the long run I find that if I'm gathering all the ore and all the oil within an area, using eff1 modules in all miners and pumpjacks and 3x prod3 in the refineries and cracking, I get about 90% of my petroleum/oil requirements met - with the remainder being provided by coal. I don't see why you should have to speedjack to get enough oil, so the balance seems about right. Note that if I weren't using prod3 in refinery and cracking then a significantly larger fraction of the petroleum would need to be provided by coal liq. It would be interesting to hear the experiences of anyone who is religiously opposed to beacons and who has built at megabase scales.

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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by Factory Lobster »

lol @ OP who made resource generation big and rich, and then says something is OP because pipes are always full.

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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by Deadly-Bagel »

Not quite the original point but there are problems with oil spawn settings. Big and rich? Here's 30 oil wells for you. Okay, medium and rich? Hmm, we'll give you 4. What????
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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by bobingabout »

Deadly-Bagel wrote:Not quite the original point but there are problems with oil spawn settings. Big and rich? Here's 30 oil wells for you. Okay, medium and rich? Hmm, we'll give you 4. What????
4 is normal, and fine. the issue is with the 30 it gives on the other setting.
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Re: 0.15 Pumpjack gives too much oil.

Post by Deadly-Bagel »

Yeah but they're 500 tiles away and you can't see any others. The graph for wells per frequency is just whack and needs making more consistent.
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