Gun turrent mk2

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sathill
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Gun turrent mk2

Post by sathill »

Gun turrents compared to laser are weak. Not in dps terms but because of combo low health + low range, also ammunition cost its quite insane. In my game i got a lot resources to build uranium bullets that seems (with all upgrades) to have few times dps of laser turret. But if i use only 1 gun vs 3 lasers it got destroyed (with bullets inside).

Gun turrets mk 1 are good when game starts, no doubt. But in endgame they seems almost pointless due to high ammunition cost and low power cost (solar panels).
They need version 2.
Also now with endless research almost nobody discover gun turret power.

So its time for gun turret mk2.
1) It need build-in request chest where player can set amount of ammunition and with one (normal, piercing, uranium). Normally when i use gun turret i place request chest and inserter. But that need power line (for inserter) but also there goes 100 ammunition in one gun. When i place like 100 of then around outpost, they need 10k ammunition and that its 190k of iron plates alone for uranium (or even 380k plates because uranium stacks to 200). If player could set amount and grade of ammunition in "requester gun turret" it will solve a lot of problems. I want have 10 magazines in gun not 100, but having option to put 100 its very good.
2) Health. Yep, 400 health and not only turret get destroyed but also ammunition its lame. Place them in second row? With so low range? No they need more health.
3) Range??? Maybe gun turrets could using conditions (like inserters for stack) but instead with range setup? More range - lower fire rate. It will be cool - it will solve problems with very high cost of ammo to some degree.

There are million mods for modding gun turrents. I know a lot of good mods made to vanilla game. Pls consider because for now laser turrets own competition hard.

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Re: Gun turrent mk2

Post by leoch »

I totally agree.

Of course, flame turrets are kind-of a mk2 turret, if you can be bothered supplying oil to your walls.

I've been using this mod for a while, and I find it quite balanced: https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Yehn/LR_Turret
This one looks similar; I haven't tried it though: https://mods.factorio.com/mods/thereave ... retUpgrade

I've also been using this, which discourages turret creep: https://mods.factorio.com/mods/withers/TurretDelay

Koub
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Re: Gun turrent mk2

Post by Koub »

I think gun turrets shouldn't receive a mkII, because they balance well with the other turrets :
- Gun turrets are fragile and have lowish range, but they outdamage on single target all the others. They also need some infrastructure for crafting and supplying bullets
- Laser turrets have the lowest single target DPS, have more HP and a higher range, but only need power, and that's all. minimal upkeep.
- Flamethrower turrets have amazing aoe dps, but providing them their ammo is really tedious as you need either kilometers of pipes or assembling machines to empty barrels you deliver them.

If gun turrets received a MkII, then both other turrets would become underpowered in regard, losing their interest, with people asking for a MkII version of them, and in the end, we'd have "I win" turrets, with light years range, supernovae dps, that would be able to wipe star system-sized biter nests :P
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Ranakastrasz
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Re: Gun turrent mk2

Post by Ranakastrasz »

While that is all good, the lack of range AND lack of health is a problem. If it were one or the other it would be fine, but the low range lets spitters tear them apart, and the higher dps doesn't really help.
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Jacob Evans
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Re: Gun turrent mk2

Post by Jacob Evans »

Koub wrote: - Flamethrower turrets have amazing aoe dps, but providing them their ammo is really tedious as you need either kilometers of pipes or assembling machines to empty barrels you deliver them.
Not entirely correct, the logistics of them are a lot easier now with the fluid wagons in 0.15.x

But otherwise i agree, Mk2 isn't really needed as it would set the rest off balance.

sathill
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Re: Gun turrent mk2

Post by sathill »

Jacob Evans wrote:
Koub wrote: But otherwise i agree, Mk2 isn't really needed as it would set the rest off balance.
For me (full vanilla 0.15) make and deliver fuel for flamethrowers are like 50x less resource hungry. In most cases i use lasers (like 99% players) because they just need power. For fun i start use flamethrowers but they need more space, and additional train stop for fuel supply. Still, they are fun. I have more behemoths than other aliens but they almost never damage even 1 hp to wall even with only one laser layer. My base produce almost 500k iron plates per hour and all of this goes for research potions (also white - for sending rocket into space). If i start produce bullets instead of almost free energy (i got 19k solar panels +when electric shortage happens nuclear kick inn) or not that much needed light oil i will be sending considerably less rockets per hour, maybe not even one. So i think my suggested mk2 gun turrets actually will be balanced considering all inputs.

And when 400hp turret dies its not big deal. Big deal its when it dies with bullets inside. Its hundreds (3,8k actually - A LOT) of iron plates for 200 uranium ammo. Even when im good with combinators i dont see way to feed them less than full stack (they cannot be connected with wire).
Guys calculate for yourself how much resources come for full stack (200) of uranium bullets if u dont believe me.

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Lav
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Re: Gun turrent mk2

Post by Lav »

sathill wrote:And when 400hp turret dies its not big deal. Big deal its when it dies with bullets inside. Its hundreds (3,8k actually - A LOT) of iron plates for 200 uranium ammo. Even when im good with combinators i dont see way to feed them less than full stack (they cannot be connected with wire).
Guys calculate for yourself how much resources come for full stack (200) of uranium bullets if u dont believe me.
Unless you load your turrets manually they won't die with a full stack of bullets inside. They're loaded up to 10 ammo, maybe a bit more depending on inserter stack size.

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Re: Gun turrent mk2

Post by JohnyDL »

And gun turrets get a much better infinite tech bonus than either laser or flame thrower that only get 1 boost each, regular guns get 2 gun turret damage multiplies with bullet damage if you keep losing them and are worried about their ammo being lost you might want to defend them with walls and have mixed defences, rather than all laser, all bullet or all flame thrower have a 1:2:1 ratio and bullet laser bullet flame ... all behind walls and dragons teeth your chances of then of losing turrets or more importantly their ammo is minimised (something like a building durability module could be cool though like a personal shield for each building.)

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ssilk
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Re: Gun turrent mk2

Post by ssilk »

Moved to balancing. And we already had that often. Fully upgrade gun turrets are really beasts. IMHO no need to upgrade anything.

They need to be planted BEHIND the lasers etc. cause they protect the area around the lasers, so that the lasers can target to the spitters.
But that is just how I do it. :)
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BlakeMW
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Re: Gun turrent mk2

Post by BlakeMW »

Another way to make gun turrets much more durable with existing game mechanisms is to place them behind walls - like 15 tiles behind the walls. If the wall is at the right distance, the gun turrets can shoot at the spitters milling around on the far side of the wall, but the spitters can't spit back. Admittedly this works better with the longer ranged turrets, but given the extreme DPS of gun turrets it still works out pretty well. In some ways it feels like an AI exploit because the spitters are too dumb to stand back and spit down the walls, but anyway with the current spitter AI you can wall spitters out of spitting range just as easily as the biters can be walled out of biting range.

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