Smooth out the assembler tiers

Place to discuss the game balance, recipes, health, enemies mining etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
thereaverofdarkness
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:07 am
Contact:

Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by thereaverofdarkness »

Currently, you breeze past Mk. 1 assemblers straight to Mk. 2 which you use for pretty much the rest of the game. Mk. 3 assemblers are neat when you finally unlock them, but they're expensive so you find it's best to use them on a few spots with concentrated construction but for the rest of your factory you simply place more assemblers.

My balancing suggestion aims to make the three tiers of assembler feel like a steady progression, and give all three a more significant presence throughout the game, ultimately allowing the individual player to decide which kind is their favorite but promoting at least some use of all three types.

----------

First, make the starting assembler able to handle up to 3 inputs. This is important for its longevity as it opens up an enormous array of options it doesn't have available to it at 2 inputs. Then we can go about making the second assembler more advanced. Making it cost more materials is not the way to do this, currently it costs exactly 2 Mk. 1 assemblers, or with expensive recipes it costs approximately 3 of them. The Mk. 3 assembler takes a lot longer to get to because you need production science to unlock it and speed modules to make it.

Now that we have made the Mk. 1 assembler able to handle the production of green and blue science directly, why not make the Mk. 2 assembler cost blue science to research and add a single red circuit to the production cost of each assembler? They're still much cheaper and simpler to make than the Mk. 3 assembler, but now they're a lot more advanced than the Mk. 1. We can further counter this increased difficulty with a buff that will probably be much appreciated by the OCD players: increase its crafting speed from 0.75 to 1. This will also increase the crafting speed of your one-per-crafting-second factories and lead some players to develop some stronger logistics to supply the factories.

Automation 2 should then require Engine, rather than unlock it.

Early in the game, you'll be able to dedicate yourself to Mk. 1 assemblers. From the moment you have them, you've got an incredible machine capable of making for you just about anything you need. You can produce red, green, blue, military, and production science, mining drills and assemblers, gun turrets and piercing ammo, engine and electric engine units, and much more. Best of all, when you upgrade your assemblers to blue, just upgrade your transport belts to red, upgrade your furnaces to steel, plop down more mining drills and double up on furnace inputs, and everything maintains the same ratio! No need to scrap your first factory anymore!

Later in the game, you can choose to use any kind of assembler as your main type, and carry around only one stack of them to save inventory space. If you like resource efficiency and you don't mind using up some space, your gray assemblers will go very well with yellow belts. If you like to always have the best stuff, you can carry around yellow assemblers with cyan belts. But plenty of players will probably strike a balance and carry around blue assemblers with red belts. Any combination is functional for building resource outposts, and you'll only need the top items in your main factory, and only in a few parts of it.

dragontamer5788
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:44 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by dragontamer5788 »

thereaverofdarkness wrote:Currently, you breeze past Mk. 1 assemblers straight to Mk. 2 which you use for pretty much the rest of the game. Mk. 3 assemblers are neat when you finally unlock them, but they're expensive so you find it's best to use them on a few spots with concentrated construction but for the rest of your factory you simply place more assemblers.
I disagree. Mk3 Assemblers have 4-slots, which means they are +40% productivity. 40% Productivity means 39% fewer items used per item. For example, Yellow Science can have 4x Productivity and roughly 39% of your Yellow Science are free.

Indeed, because Mk3 Assemblers have the highest speed, they are the most efficient per item. That is, if an item has a crafting time of 10-seconds... it'd take 8 seconds to make on an Assembler 3, but 15 seconds to make on Assembler 2. Since it takes (almost) 2x the Assembler 2 to match an Assembly 3 machine, the Assembly 3 machine is in fact more power efficient! 210 kW to make an item every 8 seconds on a stock Assembly3... vs 300 kW (and twice the space!) to make an item every 7.5 seconds with 2x Assembly2.

The intent seems to be: Mk3 Assemblers are superior to Mk 2 Assemblers. And Mk2 Assemblers are universally superior to Mk 1 Assemblers

User avatar
thereaverofdarkness
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:07 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by thereaverofdarkness »

dragontamer5788 wrote:I disagree. Mk3 Assemblers have 4-slots, which means they are +40% productivity. 40% Productivity means 39% fewer items used per item.

Indeed, because Mk3 Assemblers have the highest speed, they are the most efficient per item.

The intent seems to be: Mk3 Assemblers are superior to Mk 2 Assemblers. And Mk2 Assemblers are universally superior to Mk 1 Assemblers
Actually it's 29% fewer items used. And that requires 4 very expensive modules. It's great when used on your high-tech science assembler(s), but you wouldn't be well-served putting those modules on your red or green circuit assemblers, cable assemblers, or mining drills. That is as I had said in the OP.

They are more energy and space efficient but given their higher cost and larger factory footprint to manufacture, it is generally better to use large numbers of Assembler 2s for the majority of the factory. Exceptions would be when you have a factory hooked up to a train network and you intend to keep it for a long time, but any assemblers you place on your resource outposts probably ought to be blue assemblers unless you plan on picking up all your assemblers and relocating them to a new outpost when the resources run dry, but that doesn't do very well for constantly expanding your resource draw to cover your increasing rates of consumption. I can't see a good reason to ever fully switch to third-tier assemblers.

If they want us to switch from one type to the next and abandon the old stuff completely, why do they leave it as a thing we can craft? Why not just have all the old ones automatically become the new type? Clearly they want it to cost more to make them. But I think it makes a better game when technology unlocks new things without eliminating old things. Technology should expand your options, not have you running frantically upgrading your stuff to the next tier while not actually changing the factory dynamics.

Nasabot
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:16 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by Nasabot »

Expansive? I wonder why people use this argument for infrastructure. Infrastructure is incredible cheap compared to science, almost neglectable. (unlike you use T2-3 modules)

Personally I use 3 T1 efficiency modules in miners in midgame and when available upgrade assemblers to T3 immidiatly, there is no reason not to do this.


The argument I agree with is that Assembler T2 are available too soon(though I dont see this as a big problem). Even in a marathon game, you get T2 assembler almost instantly.

If T2 assembler are available later, I would kinda agree with it, however, the restriction for the number of inputitems should then be removed alltogether. (The T2 is some kind of "gatekeeper" infrastrukture because you need it for inserter)

User avatar
thereaverofdarkness
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:07 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by thereaverofdarkness »

Nasabot wrote:If T2 assembler are available later, I would kinda agree with it, however, the restriction for the number of inputitems should then be removed alltogether. (The T2 is some kind of "gatekeeper" infrastrukture because you need it for inserter)
I think the input limit can work to guide newer players without excessively obstructing them. If gray assemblers allow up to 3 input items, you can use them for most generic stuff but the more complex things will require a higher assembler which, they'll later agree, is what they should be using for those items.

You seem to lean heavily on the side of upgrading assemblers as much as possible, and we'll have to agree to disagree on that. But that just goes to show that different players play different ways. I usually use almost entirely blue assemblers, though yellow are important for some of the upper recipes even if they don't take more than 4 inputs, but if this change were made I would probably stick with gray assemblers as my primary for well into the mid game. I'd dedicate my red circuit production first to cyan science, then when I had beefed it up enough for purple science I would grab up a few stacks from the buffer chest and convert my assemblers up, and I'd also upgrade my gun turrets with my mod which costs 1 red circuit per turret. That way I'd be doing it one step at a time, and the upgrades would be easy because I just plonk the new ones down on top of the old ones, and use the old ones in the recipe to make the new ones.

I especially like the idea of making blue assemblers go to crafting speed of 1, then I would stay on gray assemblers until I was ready to convert all the yellow belts to red. I'd also like it if express belts were made more expensive but double the speed of the red belt instead of 50% faster, for two reasons:
1.) When I'm primarily using yellow belts, I'll occasionally use red belts on high-throughput areas. Being able to upgrade to 4x speed belts would maintain the ratios I had already laid out, making factory upgrades easy and non-invasive.
2.) The express belts really aren't that expensive, barely more than twice the cost of fast belts. The speed upgrade isn't all that much, either. Sometimes I don't bother upgrading for no reason other than that I don't feel like taking the effort to run a pipe up to the assemblers to make a belt that will throw off my ratios and waste inventory space--I prefer to keep just one stack of red belts in inventory. If cyan belts were stronger I might not keep them in inventory but I'd want to hold at least a stack available at any of my larger factories.

P.S.: I think the Factorio community has invented an onomatopoiea word:
Plonk: verb, mimics the sound of a building or transport belt being placed in Factorio

User avatar
Syrchalis
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by Syrchalis »

I would focus less on the MK3 assemblers. Their spot in the game is pretty good, because they are late-game, not easy to get, expensive, but fast, efficient and have 4 module slots to make them worthwhile to use in most cases.

MK2 assemblers are in the best spot overall, because they are fairly cheap, uncomplicated to make, work decently, have two module slots and are just overall the most used one.

What needs an overhaul are the MK1 assemblers, because who builds more than 5-10 of those? They become nothing but an ingredient very quickly. Their price and slow crafting speed is not an issue. I am sure the gameplay would be just fine if you would unlock MK2 assemblers later with oil for example. The limited ingredients are of course an issue.

I think their original purpose was merely onboarding for new players, to get used to automated crafting and automation in general.

What I believe is a good spot for MK2 is to lock them behind green science. That of course means MK1 need 3 crafting slots. Why is this a good point in progression? Because green science is the "next step" in difficulty and along with that could come the MK2 assemblers, who can use 4 ingredients (still an upgrade!).

BlakeMW
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:29 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by BlakeMW »

It seems fine to me. Mk1 assemblers are the cheapest and least energy-intensive (sans modules) to use. Mk3 assemblers are for heavy module use. Mk2 assemblers are a happy compromise.

Before I've unlocked eff1 modules I often do spam mk1 assemblers instead of using the more expensive and energy intensive mk2 assemblers. I know it's a small thing but why spend more energy and resources than I need to? For reference with standard costs Mk2 assemblers are 33% more expensive to build and consume 33% more energy per "item second" (that is normalized by crafting speed), in Marathon they cost 101% more to build. I don't really care about the build costs, but the reduced energy per item is nice - using assembler 1 is almost equivalent to using assembler 2 with a single eff1 module in terms of energy per item.

User avatar
Deadly-Bagel
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1498
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:12 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by Deadly-Bagel »

thereaverofdarkness wrote:Actually it's 29% fewer items used. And that requires 4 very expensive modules.
The cost of the modules is lower as you make more of them.

Eg it takes almost a thousand Electronic Circuits to make a Productivity Module 3, the majority of which come in the form of 30 Processing Units. The other resources could be used to make about another 15 so they're the equivalent of about 45 Processing Units.

Whack one in one of your Processing Unit Assemblers, it will earn its value back in ~450 cycles. Given that there are 1.5 Processing Units per High-Tech Science Pack, you'll go through this pretty quickly, especially if you're making more Productivity Modules. Once you upgrade all your Processing Unit Assemblers the t3 modules are almost 29% less expensive. At the reduced cost it's then more efficient to upgrade Electronic Circuit and Advanced Circuit production, this further reduces the cost of the modules (as you're getting 40% on Electronic Circuits and Processing Units) so they're about 1/2 the original cost. The rest of your factory also benefits from this.

I'd recommend them for any experienced player in a long-term game.
Money might be the root of all evil, but ignorance is the heart.

User avatar
thereaverofdarkness
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:07 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by thereaverofdarkness »

I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, my point was more that you'd only put those on your high-tech science and processing unit production. Even red circuits you probably won't want to jump into anything higher than productivity 2 until you've got a pretty strong resource income. If you're running lots of machines without modules, blue assemblers are just cheaper. That's what you'd likely use for green circuit and copper cable production.

BlakeMW
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:29 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by BlakeMW »

thereaverofdarkness wrote:I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, my point was more that you'd only put those on your high-tech science and processing unit production. Even red circuits you probably won't want to jump into anything higher than productivity 2 until you've got a pretty strong resource income. If you're running lots of machines without modules, blue assemblers are just cheaper. That's what you'd likely use for green circuit and copper cable production.
You get pretty good payoffs on prod1 in assembler3, especially high yield recipes like electronic circuits. I usually do 3x prod1 1x speed1 as an upgrade to 2x prod1 in assembler 2, in Deathworld I sometimes use 4x prod1 if I can't feed the assemblers at full speed anyway. Of course how pretty good the payoffs are depends a good deal on ore scarcity. Is it railworld where you can basically build as many miners as you like, or deathworld where you have to claw ore from the biters at considerable difficulty and expense? I mean to say, the ROI from the extra 4% productivity isn't bad - but if there is an infinity of conveniently exploitable ore the ROI on new miners and furnaces would likely be better.
Also sometimes I'm lazy and use 2xprod1 2xspeed1, which is 2.6x faster than a 2xprod1 assembler 2, strictly speaking for 8% productivity it's cheaper to just spam more assembler2, but it's not much cheaper.

User avatar
Ranakastrasz
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2124
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:05 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by Ranakastrasz »

How about dropping the Mk1 Assembler to Burner tier, Remove circuit cost, make it run on Chemical Fuel?

You use it initially, but have to supply coal. Then you get science running somewhat, until you put a few hundred science into getting to Mk2 Assemblers.
Increase the cost to include steel as well. Maybe have it use Smart Filter Inserters.

Mk3 is locked behind oil and basic module tech, so is again pretty reasonable.

Hmm. I think I might write a mod like this for personal use, thinking on it. It actually seems like a good idea....
My Mods:
Modular Armor Revamp - V16
Large Chests - V16
Agent Orange - V16
Flare - V16
Easy Refineries - V16

User avatar
Ranakastrasz
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2124
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:05 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by Ranakastrasz »

thereaverofdarkness wrote:Currently, you breeze past Mk. 1 assemblers straight to Mk. 2 which you use for pretty much the rest of the game. Mk. 3 assemblers are neat when you finally unlock them, but they're expensive so you find it's best to use them on a few spots with concentrated construction but for the rest of your factory you simply place more assemblers.

My balancing suggestion aims to make the three tiers of assembler feel like a steady progression, and give all three a more significant presence throughout the game, ultimately allowing the individual player to decide which kind is their favorite but promoting at least some use of all three types.

----------

First, make the starting assembler able to handle up to 3 inputs. This is important for its longevity as it opens up an enormous array of options it doesn't have available to it at 2 inputs. Then we can go about making the second assembler more advanced. Making it cost more materials is not the way to do this, currently it costs exactly 2 Mk. 1 assemblers, or with expensive recipes it costs approximately 3 of them. The Mk. 3 assembler takes a lot longer to get to because you need production science to unlock it and speed modules to make it.
Mk1 Assembler 3 Inputs
Now that we have made the Mk. 1 assembler able to handle the production of green and blue science directly, why not make the Mk. 2 assembler cost blue science to research and add a single red circuit to the production cost of each assembler? They're still much cheaper and simpler to make than the Mk. 3 assembler, but now they're a lot more advanced than the Mk. 1. We can further counter this increased difficulty with a buff that will probably be much appreciated by the OCD players: increase its crafting speed from 0.75 to 1. This will also increase the crafting speed of your one-per-crafting-second factories and lead some players to develop some stronger logistics to supply the factories.
Mk2 Assembler needs Blue Science, +1 Red Circuit to build.
Crafting speed 0.75 -> 1.0
Automation 2 should then require Engine, rather than unlock it.
Mk2 Assembler needs Engine Tech.
Early in the game, you'll be able to dedicate yourself to Mk. 1 assemblers. From the moment you have them, you've got an incredible machine capable of making for you just about anything you need. You can produce red, green, blue, military, and production science, mining drills and assemblers, gun turrets and piercing ammo, engine and electric engine units, and much more. Best of all, when you upgrade your assemblers to blue, just upgrade your transport belts to red, upgrade your furnaces to steel, plop down more mining drills and double up on furnace inputs, and everything maintains the same ratio! No need to scrap your first factory anymore!

Later in the game, you can choose to use any kind of assembler as your main type, and carry around only one stack of them to save inventory space. If you like resource efficiency and you don't mind using up some space, your gray assemblers will go very well with yellow belts. If you like to always have the best stuff, you can carry around yellow assemblers with cyan belts. But plenty of players will probably strike a balance and carry around blue assemblers with red belts. Any combination is functional for building resource outposts, and you'll only need the top items in your main factory, and only in a few parts of it.

Mk1 Assembler 3 Inputs
Mk2 Assembler needs Blue Science, +1 Red Circuit to build.
Mk2 Assembler Crafting speed 0.75 -> 1.0
Mk2 Assembler needs Engine Tech.

Is that the requirements? Do Mk2 assemblers need an Engine unit to actually craft, or just tech? I reread it a few times but can't tell.
Should the Mk2 Assembler recipe replace the Electric circuits with a single Red circuit or be added on?
My Mods:
Modular Armor Revamp - V16
Large Chests - V16
Agent Orange - V16
Flare - V16
Easy Refineries - V16

User avatar
thereaverofdarkness
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:07 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by thereaverofdarkness »

Ranakastrasz wrote:How about dropping the Mk1 Assembler to Burner tier, Remove circuit cost, make it run on Chemical Fuel?

Hmm. I think I might write a mod like this for personal use, thinking on it. It actually seems like a good idea....
AAI Industries mod does something like this, it adds a burner assembler but leaves the basic electric assembler like it is. AAI Industries is a great example of how burner technology could be expanded but I think it needs more: with the way you get past it and never go back, it remains just an obstacle of increased size. I'd like to see burner technology be potentially useful in the late game for outposts that have logistical difficulties with electricities, perhaps when you lack water. Expanding burner tech could open op your options more than delaying your start.

Ranakastrasz wrote:Mk1 Assembler 3 Inputs
Mk2 Assembler needs Blue Science, +1 Red Circuit to build.
Mk2 Assembler Crafting speed 0.75 -> 1.0
Mk2 Assembler needs Engine Tech.

Is that the requirements? Do Mk2 assemblers need an Engine unit to actually craft, or just tech? I reread it a few times but can't tell.
Should the Mk2 Assembler recipe replace the Electric circuits with a single Red circuit or be added on?
Engine units just for the blue science. Crafting it should take 3 inputs, so replace its 3 green circuit cost with just 1 red circuit. Now you can build them in gray assemblers.

User avatar
Ranakastrasz
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2124
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:05 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by Ranakastrasz »

thereaverofdarkness wrote:
Ranakastrasz wrote:How about dropping the Mk1 Assembler to Burner tier, Remove circuit cost, make it run on Chemical Fuel?

Hmm. I think I might write a mod like this for personal use, thinking on it. It actually seems like a good idea....
AAI Industries mod does something like this, it adds a burner assembler but leaves the basic electric assembler like it is. AAI Industries is a great example of how burner technology could be expanded but I think it needs more: with the way you get past it and never go back, it remains just an obstacle of increased size. I'd like to see burner technology be potentially useful in the late game for outposts that have logistical difficulties with electricities, perhaps when you lack water. Expanding burner tech could open op your options more than delaying your start.
True enough, but the changes I propose make it so that you have to get into science first, and once you do, its "Blue Assemblers" all the way like normal. Except it actually takes some effort to get there, instead of being around 60 or so science packs. You instead need both circuits and steel first.
Ranakastrasz wrote:Mk1 Assembler 3 Inputs
Mk2 Assembler needs Blue Science, +1 Red Circuit to build.
Mk2 Assembler Crafting speed 0.75 -> 1.0
Mk2 Assembler needs Engine Tech.

Is that the requirements? Do Mk2 assemblers need an Engine unit to actually craft, or just tech? I reread it a few times but can't tell.
Should the Mk2 Assembler recipe replace the Electric circuits with a single Red circuit or be added on?
Engine units just for the blue science. Crafting it should take 3 inputs, so replace its 3 green circuit cost with just 1 red circuit. Now you can build them in gray assemblers.
Actually it takes 4 items, so what else do I need to drop?

Code: Select all

        {"iron-plate", 9},
        {"electronic-circuit", 3},
        {"iron-gear-wheel", 5},
        {"assembling-machine-1", 1}
My Mods:
Modular Armor Revamp - V16
Large Chests - V16
Agent Orange - V16
Flare - V16
Easy Refineries - V16

User avatar
bobingabout
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 7351
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 1:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by bobingabout »

you said blue science, that's a bit high end, shouldn't it be green?

Also, if you made these changes, I'd pretty much just revert them back to how they are now in my mod. I already completely change assembling machine 3.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.
I also have a Patreon.

User avatar
Ranakastrasz
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2124
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:05 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by Ranakastrasz »

I really don't think I agree with this, personally, but here it is. Not 100% sure I got it right, but yea.


Still, a tangible example helps discussions. I already got what I wanted, xd.
Attachments
Assembler-Smooth_15.0.1.zip
(47.17 KiB) Downloaded 83 times
My Mods:
Modular Armor Revamp - V16
Large Chests - V16
Agent Orange - V16
Flare - V16
Easy Refineries - V16

User avatar
thereaverofdarkness
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:07 am
Contact:

Re: Smooth out the assembler tiers

Post by thereaverofdarkness »

Ranakastrasz wrote:Actually it takes 4 items, so what else do I need to drop?

Code: Select all

        {"iron-plate", 9},
        {"electronic-circuit", 3},
        {"iron-gear-wheel", 5},
        {"assembling-machine-1", 1}
I guess I was taking a hasty look at it. Guess it takes 4 items. Main point was not to change--definitely not increase--the total number of inputs.

Post Reply

Return to “Balancing”