Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

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mrvn
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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by mrvn »

While driving away from aliens with a car I sometimes see them turn around and head back home.

Is there some random factor involved in this or does this simply not happen with trains? Does it only happen when they have been drawn too far from home?

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Gergely
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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by Gergely »

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=54190
BlakeMW wrote:3 locos + 9 wagons tends to work.

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200+ hour factory issue, please consider this, it's not fun.

Post by Entelin »

I have many distant resource outposts connected by rail.
It's late game, most biters are green.
Biters were turned up, they cover almost everything. If an outpost looses power, it's almost immediately consumed (which is fine, biters should be a threat when you fail at something).
Early game, trains can run over biters like in the trailer. Late game though they get stopped constantly and destroyed, even by one green enemy.
It's annoying as all hell, and is constant manual maintenance to run around and fix the trains, most trains aren't even colored anymore because they get killed all the time so I don't set it.

1. I've seen some people build a huge turreted wall around literally their entire play area.. I think this undercuts their gameplay completely, it's ugly, and is basically the same as making a map with no aliens at all. I WANT aliens, I want a lot of them, I want them to be a threat, I don't want them breaking my trains constantly. Building turreted walls on both sides of all my tracks is the same thing.

2. I was hopeful that the arty trains would be a solution, I could blast the aliens back such that they wouldn't be near enough to the rails to be a problem right? Tried it, it's actually worse, any time an arty starts firing constant streams of aliens spill out, frequently crossing tracks, which case the trains to be attacked and destroyed even more frequently.

Solution: Make the late game trains work like early game trains. The solution doesn't need to be anything complicated, the early game already handles thing well, and plowing over aliens while riding a train is *FUN*. Fuel type enhances speed already, it could also enhance damage for example. The current situation in the late game cannot be automated, or solved in any interesting way and that's really the core of the issue imo.

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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by Koub »

[Koub] Merged into older topic with same subject.
Tip : make bigger, heavier trains
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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by Entelin »

Koub wrote:[Koub] Merged into older topic with same subject.
Tip : make bigger, heavier trains
I have not tried this on this on the current patch with nuclear fuel. I did try 6 segment trains prior to this and it didn't seem to make a meaningful difference. I just don't really understand why we need some big complex answer to this. Sure maybe adding new weaponized train cars might be a cool addition, but is letting a single segment train run over aliens really an issue?
3 locos + 9 wagons tends to work.
I don't want bloody 3 locos and 9 wagons... jesus...

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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by Koub »

Well I have no answer. I guesss if enough people give good arguments in favor of that, and manage to convince the devs, things may change. Or you can try modding that, so that you can run over a behemoth biter with a 1 segment train the same way you'd run over an elephant with a (modded) fiat uno ^^
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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by FasterJump »

So What's the benefit of the current brittle trains we have? In term of gameplay value?

I expect something else than "Wow, biters are strong, let's build walls everywhere, such gameplay, much wall". Anyone?

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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by Koub »

I'm not saying the balance is right. But in the far past, there have been derailing trains because of bison attacks. So it doesn't shock me if a behemoth biter does so on small and mig-sized trains.
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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by Vykromod »

Koub wrote:Well I have no answer. I guesss if enough people give good arguments in favor of that, and manage to convince the devs, things may change. Or you can try modding that, so that you can run over a behemoth biter with a 1 segment train the same way you'd run over an elephant with a (modded) fiat uno ^^
Uh... Actually no, it would be like running over an elephant with a train. I mean, there's no official lore on how much behemoth biters weigh, but judging from the fact they aren't bigger than a car and they are as fast as one, it's safe to assume one such biter shouldn't weigh more than a truck does, should we talk about realistic values.

And when a train hits a truck, this happens. So I think having the freight train run over aliens unimpeded is more realistic, apart from being way, WAY less frustrating gameplay-wise, if that wasn't more important to begin with. Still, I may be wrong with the above, but even if it is realistic for biters to stop trains, then I believe that's one part Factorio should NOT be realistic with. Having to babysit trains adds literally nothing of positive value to the gameplay.

I admit, recent addition of Artillery has helped with the issue a bit, and may the entire dev team be blessed for this ingenious feature. But still, it does not remove the problem entirely.

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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by Koub »

It makes sense too. I see it as a balancing question. How much do we (actually not "we" but "the devs") want to "punish" the train owner for not having clear rails ? I would personnally love to see all trains, whatever their size, run over any biter without slowing down, as in the old trailer (because that's soooooo badass :)). but that's just a personal preference, and I can't tell if balancing wise it would be a good thing.
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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by 3trip »

Swarms, perhaps a group of bugs grazing on the tracks, trains in the old west could take on a single cow or buffalo easily, but a herd? Nope.

So allow trains to swat one or a couple bugs, but not a dozen +, also give bugs an AI behavior for catching trains, also give us some sort of armored car to deal with biters when they learn how to stop trains.

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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by BlakeMW »

Vykromod wrote: I mean, there's no official lore on how much behemoth biters weigh, but judging from the fact they aren't bigger than a car and they are as fast as one, it's safe to assume one such biter shouldn't weigh more than a truck does, should we talk about realistic values.
Another metric: A locomotive has 1000hp, a Tank has 2000hp, a Behemoth Biter has 5000hp. Visually they aren't bigger than a car, but I think their stats suggest they are literally behemoths - they take twice as much killing as a Tank. Even assuming the Tank is just a light tank (6-10t) that could suggest the Behemoth Biter weighs in at 12-20t, easily weighing more than a full grown African Elephant.

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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by mrvn »

I don't think trains should run "over" aliens. Instead they should be able to shove them off to the side. There should still be some damage, on both sides, but less damage and less loss of momentum.

So a train should be able to cut through a few behemoth bitters but not kill them. And if it doesn't get constantly repaired it will be destroyed after a few passes.

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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by porcupine »

mrvn wrote:I don't think trains should run "over" aliens. Instead they should be able to shove them off to the side. There should still be some damage, on both sides, but less damage and less loss of momentum.

So a train should be able to cut through a few behemoth bitters but not kill them. And if it doesn't get constantly repaired it will be destroyed after a few passes.
I think part of what we're missing is, it seems we don't know how the existing mechanic works. Some people say Behemoth biters can be killed (consistently) with a large enough train. Other people say it's impossible, etc.

Assuming that's the case, maybe it's just a question of tweaking the numbers a bit. I'm sure we all agree that a train going at 50kph shouldn't steam-roll a behemoth right?

IMHO (which may not be feasible), I'd like to see Factorio take into account each hit in terms of biter size, vs train inertia (+speed to an extent, just because a train is 100 cars doesn't mean it should kill something at 5kph obviously). Biters destroyed flat out should slow the train down by maybe 1/2 or 1/4 the amount that biters that are simply smashed aside (but not killed) slow it down by. Eventually, at a low enough speed, the train can't do either. That way a large/fast train could roll through, bug-splatter the small/medium biters and slow down a very marginally, bug-splatter a behemoth or two, before loosing too much inertia, and then simply pushing remaining/others to the side, eventually grinding to a near stop if it looses too inertia, at which point obviously the cars/etc. are vulnerable.

The engine would take damage the entire time (on a similar scale as the speed loss above), this would add a really nifty mechanic/realism to trains running down lines of biters, and I think would be practical to implement (clearly biters do slow down trains now, and do damage 'em, it's just the shoving mechanic, and some tweaking involved right?).

For anybody who argues biters vs trains, realism, etc. Consider biters ignore electrical poles outright. I'd rather see that reversed if anything (making people use trains to power outposts with raw resources say), than how it stands now. At least then, you'd be more likely to be creative, then just wall in all tracks, everywhere, just because...

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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by darkfrei »

MasterBuilder wrote:The train doesn't need to kill the biter, it just needs to push them out of the way.

A simple engineering problem.
Image
This is designed more for snow but should work equally well for cows. I like to think that trains consider biters to be angry cows.

Maybe the train takes damage? Maybe it's forced to slow down? Minor details.
icon.png
icon.png (9.96 KiB) Viewed 3968 times
2017-12-24 02_02_04-Factorio 0.16.7.jpg
2017-12-24 02_02_04-Factorio 0.16.7.jpg (145.53 KiB) Viewed 3941 times
I've made this mod for same problem, just going trough biters on late game. Very heavy wagon with low damage from impact.
https://mods.factorio.com/mods/darkfrei/HeavyWagon
Last edited by darkfrei on Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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steinio
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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by steinio »

Omg this graphic style is so great.

Can we get more of blockotorio?
Image
Transport Belt Repair Man

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darkfrei
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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by darkfrei »

steinio wrote:Omg this graphic style is so great.

Can we get more of blockotorio?
Nice idea! It was as added place holder only, it's not easy to add right proportions. Assemblers, trains, inserters, what else?
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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by BLuehasia »

not sure what OP has an issue with.

when i build my two way train tracks i put lasers in the center so any times biters try to cross the tracks or attack a train they are shoot down, and every outpost is heavily defended.

bad photo from my .15 game but can all my tracks interconnecting bases have lasers every few feet apart
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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by sathill »

BLuehasia wrote:not sure what OP has an issue with.
This is endgame problem. Yours foto is mid game. When evo reach 99% behemots are very common. When some bugs get runover death his friends chase train then stop on rails. Single behemoth stops 250kmh train not moving one cm then kill loco. Loco lose all drive plan and this is called pain.

Devs make some unessesary artilery train that does not adress issue. Everybody just want train that can defend himself.

Now only 2 things in vanilla can be done.
Megawalls aroud everything. Lame
Megatrains. But nobody know numbers of loco, wagon and fluid wagons needed to deliver democracy to behemoth.

I need that info badly. I love democracy.

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Re: Please make trains able to run over evolved aliens

Post by BlakeMW »

sathill wrote: I need that info badly. I love democracy.
Fine these are some minimal combinations I found will democratize a behemoth biter when the train is travelling at max speed (298.1 km/h)
  • 1 locomotive + 9 wagons (probably needs nuclear fuel to reach top speed)
  • 2 locomotives + 7 wagons
  • 2 locomotives + 3 fluid wagons
It seems you need a total train weight equivalent to 11 wagons, where wagon = 1, locomotive = 2, fluid wagon = 3, artillery wagon = 4
This is for top speed: if the train isn't up to full speed it might have inadequate momentum, it would be best to allocate sufficient safe track to reach top speed (as a side note: These numbers also work for the solid fuel top speed of 272 km/h, but if using wood/coal you'll need 12 wagon-weights)

The train does not lose speed when it wins an encounter, the game is a little indecisive on whether the locomotive takes damage or not (sometimes it doesn't) but when it does take damage it seems to suffer 53 damage meaning it can crush at least 19 Behemoths before running out of HP.

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