Slow start is annoying / Get rid of some basic research

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EditorRUS
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Slow start is annoying / Get rid of some basic research

Post by EditorRUS » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:44 am

When you start your game, you don't have many crucial things such as underground belts, assembler machines, turrets and you absolutely have to research at least one of those by hand-crafting 10 red packs and putting them inside a lab.

I don't think it's fine to stagger early game by making players to research those because:
1. Underground belts (Logistics 1) and splitters are so incredibly important they deserve to be available right from the start.
In early game you don't usually run into problems with logistics that require you to put some underground belts, but you sure will as you expand your factory. There is no reason not to research those ASAP, but there is also no reason to have them in early game. That essentially renders the research redundant and only delays the player from getting them. This is even worse considering that most early-game autocrafting is done by putting ingredients manually rather than using belts.

2. Gun turrets have the same problem. Your factory will not be able to produce enough pollution and even in the most densest alien infested map you don't need turrets until a bit later. But later you will absolutely have to use them and once again if you haven''t researched them by them, then it means you are doing something really wrong. There is no reason not to have gun turrets right from the start, considering that the research is cheap enough to do it manually.

3. Weapons 1. Oh boy, don't even get me started. Pistol is completely useless and no one uses it. Nearly everyone switches to SMG ASAP and once again that puts "Weapons 1" in an annoying spot: no one is going to delay this research or skip it, but you still gotta do it and waste your time.

4. Optics. Currently they only give you lights, which make the game slightly less annoying at night, however there is no real justified reason to have them. The game is still very well playable even without them.


Basically there is no real reason not to have these 4 things unavailable. None of them makes you think, "Oh, should I first research this and then that? Or that and then this?" because you don't need to hurry when researching them. Take your time and do it, no need to prioritize them (except for optics). You will eventually research them all and only then will the game start.

jmickle_
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Re: Slow start is annoying / Get rid of some basic research

Post by jmickle_ » Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:52 pm

Personally I think the slow start is absolutely essential for players just starting with the game. While not perfect, and there is clearly an issue for players who are more comfortable already, I think giving all of those suggested technologies to the player immediately will impede new players' learning of the basic mechanics. I remember when I played my first game, unlocking Automation 1 and Logistics 1 was a huge "omg! that manual task can be automated now! this opens up so many possibilities!" and i got straight on experimenting with a bunch of stuff. The idea that I could automate my research was another big breakthrough, and this slow learning process is kind of the basis of the entire game.

I think there may be some potential for trying to speed up the game for players who know what they're doing, but personally I think giving those technologies immediately would harm new players too much.

Avezo
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Re: Slow start is annoying / Get rid of some basic research

Post by Avezo » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:29 pm

About optics part, I think simple thing like ability to make a campfire that eventually burns out would fit very well for the start. You are supposed to be survivor or something after all.
About pistol at start, I also have a 'primitive' idea. Starting weapon should be just stones you can mine and biters should be weak enough to be dealt with just them at the beginning.

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Re: Slow start is annoying / Get rid of some basic research

Post by ssilk » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:53 pm

Moved to balancing. :)

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Re: Slow start is annoying / Get rid of some basic research

Post by Falonthorne » Wed May 01, 2019 10:03 pm

jmickle_ wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:52 pm
Personally I think the slow start is absolutely essential for players just starting with the game. While not perfect, and there is clearly an issue for players who are more comfortable already, I think giving all of those suggested technologies to the player immediately will impede new players' learning of the basic mechanics. I remember when I played my first game, unlocking Automation 1 and Logistics 1 was a huge "omg! that manual task can be automated now! this opens up so many possibilities!" and i got straight on experimenting with a bunch of stuff. The idea that I could automate my research was another big breakthrough, and this slow learning process is kind of the basis of the entire game.

I think there may be some potential for trying to speed up the game for players who know what they're doing, but personally I think giving those technologies immediately would harm new players too much.
I refunded this game because of the mind-numbing slow start.

It's very uninteresting to just go back and forth, terrible first impression, will never pay attention to these devs again if this is how they treat their player base.

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Re: Slow start is annoying / Get rid of some basic research

Post by bobucles » Thu May 02, 2019 2:35 pm

I wouldn't mind an accelerated start that gave players some starting resources and gave most of the red tier. Assemblers, weapons1 and logistics1 seems like a good mess of starting tech, and a handful of assemblers/belts/burners and an initial source of energy is enough stuff to start construction right away.

These items probably shouldn't spawn with the player, otherwise everyone that joins will get the same starter package and that's a lot of free stuff. Just take a page from the old campaign ideas and include some wreckage in the starting zone. That wreckage provides all the materials for the accelerated start.

jodokus31
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Re: Slow start is annoying / Get rid of some basic research

Post by jodokus31 » Wed May 08, 2019 4:00 pm

I absolutely like the progression, when things start to work together and new things are achieved.
I especially like marathon or mods like seablock or xander, where this start is much slower and it gets faster based on strategy.
Just my opinion. I understand, that other's have different opinions and i'm fine with that

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Re: Slow start is annoying / Get rid of some basic research

Post by theolderbeholder » Wed May 08, 2019 5:48 pm

The slow, manual start does create a certain urge to automate, something which will pay off for the rest of the game. Unless you are speedrunning it is around a percent of a map´s playtime anyway.

YMMV

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