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I wasn't sure if I should put that topic into "Ideas and suggestions" or "balance"- I guess it is a bit of both, so you decide ssilk Sorry by the way for the wall of text, I hope it's an interesting read for some anyway. I thought a lot about my arguments here.

I played around a lot in freeplay so far and experimented a bit with the map generator. I know that some changes are coming, and I also heard you dev guys saying that the map generator is some kind of "black magic" from time to time But I think those changes are pretty important. Most of my experiences are based on low and very low frequency settings; I haven't even bothered trying high settings (I tried that with resources once, but it got boring pretty fast), because even on very low there is too much of everything (enemies as well as resources).

Just to clarify one thing at the start of my post: I am not complaining about difficulty; my point is that I am not happy with the way you (need to) build your bases at the moment.

So far, I like the building aspect of the game a lot more than the fighting. This has of course to do with the fact that combat just isn't fleshed out like other parts of the game; it's going in the right direction, but isn't quite there yet. While creating maps, I noticed that I pretty much prefer setting my starting area to very big, biter nest frequency to very low but also, resource frequency to very low too. The reason for this is the arising need to build outposts and trains - or at least i hoped so. But even on very low settings, there's too much stuff right around the corner.

With most maps I created I got LOTS of resources around my starting area, even with ore frequency set down. There was no need at all to go for a nice train setup or heavily guarded outposts, because it was literally right there in the neighbourhood. And, to be honest, that wasn't even possible for the most part; you don't need to look for long if you wanna find biter nests. And lots of them in most cases.

If you go and explore the map a bit, you enter new biomes (like, forest, a desert behind that, and so on). In Factorio, I get the same need to explore my surroundings like in Civilization. It's just great wandering around and discovering the continent you're on; suddenly you stand in front of an ocean (or is it just a gigantic lake? What's behind it?), or there's that huge iron deposit right behind the desert you wanna grab, but there's also this gigantic biter nest besides it... Point is, exploration is fun. Right now, you can't do that much. At all. At least not on standard settings. And even when I modify the standard settings like I described, it's not enough at all.

The problem in the current version is: Even with ore and nest frequency set to very low, there is SO MUCH of both of them around. I can't walk more than a few seconds in a direction without discovering a new nest, or more ore. On very low, it feels more like "normal" or "high" than "very low". And this takes away a lot from the game. I think nests - if not set to high or very high - shouldn't be on every square inch around your base. Sometimes, it feels like I landed in Biter Manhattan... I even ask myself why humans bother settling on such a Starship Trooper like planet

I don't need to think of a bigger train network right now, because resources are just around the corner. Even if I build some stations, it's rarely a trip longer than a few seconds with a fully loaded train. Even train routes as long as in the third or fourth campaign mission are practically impossible (and also unnecessary). I want to build an epic factory with different outposts for different things that are not just around the corner - sure, i can do that right now, but I don't need to. ssilk wrote another post about his savegame where he fools around a bit with building a train network that stretches VERY far. If I remember correctly he wrote about outposts that are one or two minute trips (with trains) away, and that this is lots of fun (he also wrote that farther than that doesn't work too well, but 1-2 minutes feels right - please excuse if I don't quote you completely accurate here ssilk ). But the gameplay doesn't enable you to do this right now. It's even not that simple to accomplish a network of a wider span - you first need to kill a lot of nests, and for that you better get to endgame content... Why even bother with building outposts at this point? Spreading out into further regions should be a mid-game thing, not something you do after you practically finished the content.

Oh, and for the guys who want to be in the middle of hostile territory with the need to build small and compact, there's always the other generator options, like high and very high.

=================

Bottom line: I think you guys should really think about frequency of spawning practically everything on the map for the sake of gameplay. Leave the player MUCH more space than is the case right now. Balance wise, it wouldn't even change the difficulty much if done right. Less nests means less aggression, but you could change the pollution system a bit so it reaches farther nests. But you really, really need to change nest frequency, so it's possible to spread out more and explore farther. That of course also means resources need to become more sparse, so you got a good reason to move out. If I have everything around the corner, why even bother with a train network? Of course, maybe you should also make sure that there's always at least some of everything in the starting area; at least enough to build a basic setup, and maybe your first train route. But I have a very, very strong feeling that this would help with multiplayer (you can build different factories and outposts a lot more spread out), as well as endgame content (bigger bases, bigger infrastructures, more stuff to handle and plan).

Some opinions would interest me very much

I completly agree with GewaltSam. I'm too looking for an option where you need to built far afar outposts. An option where the generation of nests is more spread out and the rate at which they get bigger the farther away from the starting point you are, is lesser.

The only way i found right know is to set resources to very low on the 3 categories and the same to the bitters. This makes me to travel far to get the resources i want, but there are so little at every spot that it is not satisfying to make an outpost every chunk. I will try now very low/very small/very good. But it doesn't cut it.

If a medium setting is 0 and very low is -2, i would love a setting where on the resources and the bitters i would put -4 or -5 to frequency and 0 or -1 to size and richness. In fact i would love to be able to choose setting from -5 to 5 instead of the -2 to 2 we have right know.


Also it would be very nice if i can spawn in a desert without that ring of rocks. I think you put them there to help with the bitters as there are no trees to absorb pollution. But i search for deserts on porpuse and i really hate having to waste a lot of ammunition and time destroying hundreds of 200 hps rocks in the early game.


So, all in all, it want more options to choose from
If you don't want to put them in because it could be too much for a first time freeplayer, you could put a tab with "advanced" options for example.

Yeah, this is correctly quoted.

The mentioned map is here: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=8&t=2688

And some threads, from where I refer to this: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 688#p22687
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 688#p22683

Especially the threads about outpost logistics is important for that. It leads further to this thread: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... arts#p2190

This is about how to support those far away outposts, and from there you come to many other suggestions.

The point is: without such outpost logistics it is quite useless. It just takes much too long. And another one is automising: without being able to say: here the train station, here the mines, there some storage, logistics, support etc. you won't be able to be fast enough. I get here really to a point, where I cannot expand faster, because every single item must be placed by myself. But that would change the game completely. I can say, that is would like that, but is that the direction, everyone/the most would have it? Big question mark.

So in the end it keeps at that, what I said till beginning: the key to handle it is building speed, easier placing, speed up of the game.

Oh, I need to read into that. I am just planning an automated system that supplies my outposts with everything they need. I got some good ideas how to do that with the current system, I just don't know if it works in practice (but it should). Let's see what you already wrote about that topic

Well, in the example factory I mentioned above I made a quite tricky, but well functioning support line with wires and train.

Sorry, but did you try putting the starting area to "none" or "small". This setting overwrites the resource settings in the immediate area. I can't really see if you knew this because of the giant wall of text.

Okay, i should maybe try that. I anyway have the feeling that there are too many nests in most cases and even far from my base are a lot of resources with starting area on very big (and i mean really far enough).

Sorry for the wall of text, I'll try to keep it quick'n'dirty next time

I completely agree. Maybe we even need a few different map generators (or map generator variants) to allow for different types of maps (like, for example, in Civ games you have continents, pangaea, archipelago, or even mod-defined map scripts with different resource distribution etc.)

One thing I would like to add, which I think could add value to the game, is having massive zones of each resource with small patches of ore fields.
That is - there is a very large area with iron (maybe something like two-three screenfuls), but it is not entirely covered in iron. Instead, this area is simply "naturally rich" in iron, and this is expressed by many small fields of iron ore.
This way you can have a single outpost, say, in the middle of the big "meta-field", and move the miners from time to time to a nearby location.

Having the different resources in different location also sounds more realistic to me, although I know nothing about geology and mineralogy, so I may as well be completely wrong

(edit: fix typo )

I agree with the idea of richer, more sparse resource deposits, which would encourage more thorough use of trains (although the trains themselves could use some refinements first, like faster track-laying or better pathing).

In my first freeplay completion, there were a number of deposits which were too small and too close to justify building railroad to, so I'd bring the car by periodically and manually insert. It seems a little against the spirit of the game.
Oil can be particularly bad about this, because deposits tend to deplete quickly. It was easier to drive around a car full of barrels than to actually set up a rail or pipe line, since the deposits were only good for so many barrels anyway.

Finally, those dang aliens really do have a nasty habit of spawning just anywhere. I heard they don't spawn within a certain radius of your stuff, so I've taken to dropping pylons (wall sections) around the map. It seems sort of exploitative, but I don't like the aliens popping up new bases in my smog zone.

hipscumbag wrote:so I'd bring the car by periodically and manually insert. It seems a little against the spirit of the game.

You know, you can insert stuff with inserters also in a car? I use that, when I don't want to build a belt for some small ore fields. Car, inside some solar, some accu, miners, some belts and inserters and of course defense.

The car is nothing than a moveable chest!

Alfdaur wrote:Sorry, but did you try putting the starting area to "none" or "small". This setting overwrites the resource settings in the immediate area. I can't really see if you knew this because of the giant wall of text.

Are you sure about this? I just tested this several times and it does not overwrite the resource in the immediate area. It just sets how far the first bitters are from the starting area. Which with very small or none, you just don't have space to build. But the ore resources in the starting area are just the same.

hipscumbag wrote:...the trains themselves could use some refinements first, like faster track-laying.

Until then, you can place track in a straight line very quickly by having track selected, being in the train engine, and holding the place button down just in front of it while moving at full speed. I.e.: you are laying the track as you ride on it. Just watch where you are going.

Instead of spreading out the initial resources, why not plant a new resource that is needed in the late game? The resource would require exploration/surveying to discover, and would be located at a minimum distance from the beginning base.

i like trains even for smal ressources fields, if they depleted i dismantle the mashines and station and expand the track to the next field i find but yea i like more spread out ressources so that i neeeeeeed more trains, in a pre-version of factorio it was possible to choose ground layer, i like to play in desert only becouse nostalig dune effect

+1