Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by bobucles » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:22 am

What about making the worms able to burrow and destroy turrets by "undermining" them?
This is actually pretty clever. The worms gain a special defense and attack against turrets in a pretty cool way.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by BlakeMW » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:23 pm

I've also thought about the underground tentacle attack.

The main problem I forsee is that if an alien base colonizes the edges of your defenses, outside of laser turret range but within tentacle range it could slowly dismantle your defenses, which is not really compatible with the idea of automation (it would mean that really no defensive line is really safe however well designed and provisioned it is)

One possible solution to that would be to have the underground tentacle turret only be allowed in preexisting nests or disallow it spawning within range of existing turrets.

But there's also another problem: Without turret activation delay - which probably won't happen because it is un-fun - it'll be pretty irrelevant at the speed with which a personal roboport boosted laser assault can dismantle nests and move on, of course it could still make a fun enhancing addition to the game it just wouldn't really solve the problem of steamrolling nests with laser turrets (if that even is a problem, which it isn't, it's fun and nukes are just as good).

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by bobucles » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:28 pm

outside of laser turret range but within tentacle range it could slowly dismantle your defenses, which is not really compatible with the idea of automation (it would mean that really no defensive line is really safe however well designed and provisioned it is)
That's what land mines are for, right? It's too bad you can't place grenades with blueprints. ;)

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Tyrantis123 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:48 pm

All things in the game should have a purpose, Laser turrets don't require ammo and it pretty much obsoletes any other defense. I suggest a nerf to the laser turrets DPS since it doesn't use ammo. A heavier ammo reliant turret that is as strong as the laser turrets before they got nerfed should give us a reason to mass produce ammunition. It has to be something worth the ammo, like a sniper turret that shoots far away or something. :|

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by dood » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:19 am

Tyrantis123 wrote:All things in the game should have a purpose, Laser turrets don't require ammo and it pretty much obsoletes any other defense. I suggest a nerf to the laser turrets DPS since it doesn't use ammo. A heavier ammo reliant turret that is as strong as the laser turrets before they got nerfed should give us a reason to mass produce ammunition. It has to be something worth the ammo, like a sniper turret that shoots far away or something. :|
What are you talking about, gun turrets have been super strong pre nuclear power and are just stupidly powerful with uranium ammo, infinite research and double dipping damage upgrades.

It's not an issue of "laser turrets are too powerful". Gun turrets laugh at the DPS of laser turrets.
The issue is the logistical problem of getting ammo to them on a large scale which the fun police also made harder than ever by locking requester chests behind yellow science so that automated gun turrets are now late game tech, way after you've already built a laser defense.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by bobucles » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:13 pm

Fun police
That's right! We can't have unsavory players using bots to automatically fill their turrets!

Or you could just like make a belt, put ammo on the belt and feed guns with the ammo on the belt. An ammo belt will keep your base well fortified until laser turrets are unlocked. It's easy to set up, easy to inspect and looks pretty cool.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Oktokolo » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:15 pm

bobucles wrote: Or you could just like make a belt, put ammo on the belt and feed guns with the ammo on the belt.
Do a buffered belt with a lane of fuel and one of ammo and use burner inserters to feed from the buffer onto the belt and from the belt into the turrets. such a system keeps on working during blackouts until the buffers are empty.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by mrvn » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:24 pm

Oktokolo wrote:
bobucles wrote: Or you could just like make a belt, put ammo on the belt and feed guns with the ammo on the belt.
Do a buffered belt with a lane of fuel and one of ammo and use burner inserters to feed from the buffer onto the belt and from the belt into the turrets. such a system keeps on working during blackouts until the buffers are empty.
A belt is a HUGE buffer and I've used that exact setup. But when you are getting attacked at multiple places the first one takes all the ammo from the belt and then the second, third, ... runs out.

Plus what to do with all that pre-made ammo when you switch to lasers? I need to do a lot of military science packs now to use it all up.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by bobucles » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:57 am

Belts buffer a TON of ammo!
My buffered belts run out of ammo!
Well? Which is it? Make up your mind! :lol:

A yellow belt moves 6.7 ammo packs/sec per lane, having a potential of over 500 base DPS when loaded with red ammo. It takes 19 low tech red bullets kill a medium biter, which costs 1000 pollution to spawn each. You need the pollution output of nearly one thousand steel furnaces in order for your half belt to simply never keep up.

What I'm trying to say is that a simple belt has no problems feeding ammo to turrets. You can make sure that all the guns stay fed by running a continuous belt loop.

Running a low compression ammo belt is very possible with a bit of wiring. Wire a chunk of belt to read(hold), and wire the ammo insertion point. Only enable the belt to add ammo when the chunk of belt runs low. It runs in a continuous loop, feeding in new ammo more or less only when it's needed. Nothing fancy about it.
ammo belt.jpg
ammo belt.jpg (431.31 KiB) Viewed 1559 times
Of course you don't really NEED to do such a thing. Military science can easily chew down a thousand red ammo or so, and biters will have no problem burning off the rest of your legacy ammo. Leftovers can also be upgraded into uranium ammo in the late game.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by mrvn » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:52 am

Well, I had yellow ammo and lots of angry aliens. I had no way near enough steel production for a full yellow belt of ammo. And with yellow ammo the turrets just kept chewing through the ammo and taking new ammo from the belt so the belt did run dry from all the ammo taken from it.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by dood » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:02 am

bobucles wrote:
Fun police
That's right! We can't have unsavory players using bots to automatically fill their turrets!

Or you could just like make a belt, put ammo on the belt and feed guns with the ammo on the belt. An ammo belt will keep your base well fortified until laser turrets are unlocked. It's easy to set up, easy to inspect and looks pretty cool.
Yeah that's what I start off with to secure my initial area.
I end up with 8000+ ammo in my pocket once I get to lasers and move the defenses.
Bots pre- science update never did that to me.

You could also use long inserters to grab ammo from turret to turret and make a conga line of bullets but then you would have a higher turret density, more power poles and hundreds of long handed inserters once you deconstruct it.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Oktokolo » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:00 am

mrvn wrote: A belt is a HUGE buffer and I've used that exact setup. But when you are getting attacked at multiple places the first one takes all the ammo from the belt and then the second, third, ... runs out.
If you are under constant ongoing attack, you are doin it wrong. The game encourages an american playstyle where you actively go out to destroy enemy camps, that are in your pollution range. Also you have to upgrade to red ammo as soon as it is available. The yellow stuff is just a waste of iron against all but the weakest biters.
mrvn wrote: Plus what to do with all that pre-made ammo when you switch to lasers? I need to do a lot of military science packs now to use it all up.
Just don't switch to lasers - switch to uranium ammo instead. There is no need to use lasers ever. Always keep your pollution area clean and try to wall it off (does not have to be an actual wall - it is only meant to preventing biter resettlement so there never is a biter camp in your pollution cloud) as soon as possible.
As soon, as you get nukes, preventive cleaning and wallig off of entire continents is the way to go for securing resources. If you did it right, you get the first nukes while the biters are still medium sized.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by dood » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:19 pm

Oktokolo wrote:If you are under constant ongoing attack, you are doin it wrong. The game encourages an american playstyle where you actively go out to destroy enemy camps
(...)
If you did it right, you get the first nukes while the biters are still medium sized.
Nothing accelerates biter evolution faster than going around, blowing nests up.
You can't avoid big biters at the point at which you get efficiency modules and electric furnaces to manage pollution.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Oktokolo » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:00 pm

dood wrote:Nothing accelerates biter evolution faster than going around, blowing nests up.
You can't avoid big biters at the point at which you get efficiency modules and electric furnaces to manage pollution.
If you leave a cluster of turrets behind whenever you blow up a nest, you have to blow up every nest only once. This limits the evolution impact of blowing em up - and it is a nest not constantly absorbing pollution (another thing increasing evolution). I did had a game where i got to full electric, efficiency 1 everywhere with medium biters. Sure, after i then cleaned some continents, they got big...

In case nothing else works, you can always slow down - time-based evolution is negligible compared to the effects of pollution. But i would always suggest reaching red bullets as fast as possible and then cleaning the perimeter one segment at a time protecting it with turrets against resettlement as you go. Can't do anything else while doing that - but after that you don't even need to switch to electric furnaces or solar at all - just keep burning solid fuel. It's cheap and later on you can use nukes to get more oil...

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by fiery_salmon » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:10 pm

Oktokolo wrote:and it is a nest not constantly absorbing pollution (another thing increasing evolution
it is a common myth, producing pollution increases evolution

absorption by nests is only triggering attacks

see Factorio wiki

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by bobucles » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:02 am

Well, I had yellow ammo and lots of angry aliens. I had no way near enough steel production for a full yellow belt of ammo.
Well that's the problem. Yellow ammo is basically complete trash. Upgrading from 5 - 8 damage is not much on paper, but it's a world of difference when damage resistances get into play. Medium biters start with 4 bullet resistance (bringing yellow's starting 5 damage down to 1) and blue biters have 8 resistance. If you don't have at least one or two upgrades into red ammo before seeing a blue biter your turrets will be eaten alive.
Just don't switch to lasers - switch to uranium ammo instead. There is no need to use lasers ever.
This is not a serious solution on anything but easy game settings.

Behemoth biters have an astonishing 12 bullet resist. It takes many bullet and turret upgrades before red ammo even becomes partially effective. Uranium ammo is deep in the tech tree, and on harder settings it's very easy to reach green biters very quickly. Lasers are extremely important as a middle step since they're easy to pick up at low evolution and biters don't have laser resistance.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:22 am

fiery_salmon wrote:it is a common myth, producing pollution increases evolution absorption by nests is only triggering attacks see Factorio wiki
Wow, did not know that. Guess i only profit from lower pollution production due to wasting less ammo then.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by 5thHorseman » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:28 am

Oktokolo wrote:
fiery_salmon wrote:it is a common myth, producing pollution increases evolution absorption by nests is only triggering attacks see Factorio wiki
Wow, did not know that. Guess i only profit from lower pollution production due to wasting less ammo then.
No, your pollution raises biter evolution. It just doesn't have anything to do with how your pollution touches their bases. They just *know* you're polluting and angrily evolve themselves regardless of if they're in the cloud.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:07 pm

5thHorseman wrote:
Oktokolo wrote:
fiery_salmon wrote:it is a common myth, producing pollution increases evolution absorption by nests is only triggering attacks see Factorio wiki
Wow, did not know that. Guess i only profit from lower pollution production due to wasting less ammo then.
No, your pollution raises biter evolution. It just doesn't have anything to do with how your pollution touches their bases. They just *know* you're polluting and angrily evolve themselves regardless of if they're in the cloud.
That is exactly how i understood fiery_salmon.
My quote does not argue against that.
The point is: I do not have to shoot as many biters as when i do not clean my pollution perimeter. So i do not use as much bullets (or energy if you go with lasers) and therefore create less ammo. Less ammo -> less pollution -> slower evolution.
bobucles wrote:This is not a serious solution on anything but easy game settings.
I do not play deathworld myself - but KatherineOfSky and Nilaus do.
They used flamer turrets for their perimeters and they worked well even against behemoths.
So maybe bullets might not cut it on a deathworld. But you certainly do not have to go lasers to survive.
On regular settings, bullets are certainly beefy enough for all your killing needs. Their tech tree allows you to always be some steps ahead of the biters if you start small and rush military.
bobucles wrote: Behemoth biters have an astonishing 12 bullet resist. It takes many bullet and turret upgrades before red ammo even becomes partially effective. Uranium ammo is deep in the tech tree, and on harder settings it's very easy to reach green biters very quickly. Lasers are extremely important as a middle step since they're easy to pick up at low evolution and biters don't have laser resistance.
I never saw behemoths before i had plenty of uranium ammo stocked up (most of the time i clean an entire continent before i see the first behemoth).
Since prioritizing military from the start i also never had medium biters before red ammo. Military is the most important thing to develop in a world where you con only get more resources through killing the natives.
Even on a deathworld i would expect having at least heavily upgraded red ammo before the first behemoth arrives.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by mrvn » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:54 pm

Oktokolo wrote:
5thHorseman wrote:
Oktokolo wrote:
fiery_salmon wrote:it is a common myth, producing pollution increases evolution absorption by nests is only triggering attacks see Factorio wiki
Wow, did not know that. Guess i only profit from lower pollution production due to wasting less ammo then.
No, your pollution raises biter evolution. It just doesn't have anything to do with how your pollution touches their bases. They just *know* you're polluting and angrily evolve themselves regardless of if they're in the cloud.
That is exactly how i understood fiery_salmon.
My quote does not argue against that.
The point is: I do not have to shoot as many biters as when i do not clean my pollution perimeter. So i do not use as much bullets (or energy if you go with lasers) and therefore create less ammo. Less ammo -> less pollution -> slower evolution.
bobucles wrote:This is not a serious solution on anything but easy game settings.
I do not play deathworld myself - but KatherineOfSky and Nilaus do.
They used flamer turrets for their perimeters and they worked well even against behemoths.
So maybe bullets might not cut it on a deathworld. But you certainly do not have to go lasers to survive.
On regular settings, bullets are certainly beefy enough for all your killing needs. Their tech tree allows you to always be some steps ahead of the biters if you start small and rush military.
bobucles wrote: Behemoth biters have an astonishing 12 bullet resist. It takes many bullet and turret upgrades before red ammo even becomes partially effective. Uranium ammo is deep in the tech tree, and on harder settings it's very easy to reach green biters very quickly. Lasers are extremely important as a middle step since they're easy to pick up at low evolution and biters don't have laser resistance.
I never saw behemoths before i had plenty of uranium ammo stocked up (most of the time i clean an entire continent before i see the first behemoth).
Since prioritizing military from the start i also never had medium biters before red ammo. Military is the most important thing to develop in a world where you con only get more resources through killing the natives.
Even on a deathworld i would expect having at least heavily upgraded red ammo before the first behemoth arrives.

Lots of alien nests and worms in sight and uranium nowhere to be found. I have to crystalize some and that really only makes sense when you have the advanced recipe for it. And first thing I want to do with all that uranium is start a nuclear reactor. Nukes are far far away.

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