Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

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blazespinnaker
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by blazespinnaker »

Rockets + land mines are my preferred ways of clean up biter nests. Land mines keep them from coming close, while you pick off everything. No creep needed.

Personal roboport helps here to clean up mine mess afterwards.

I found follower bots a tad expensive compared to land mines.

Really though, I think unless you're doing a rocket rush, going straight for artillery + logistics system after getting bots makes the most sense when not in peaceful. Place some artillery on islands and supply it with shells via logistics. All biters wiped with not much effort.
Last edited by blazespinnaker on Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

jodokus31 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:54 pm
AmericanPatriot wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:56 am
It's just too easy! Walk toward biter base. Launch nuke. Run in circles and repeat.
It's not easy to get the nukes ;)
BTW: In 2014, nukes weren't a thing in factorio.
Rereading this thread and just realized how old it is :oops:
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by blazespinnaker »

I believe the thread was merged recently.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Cribbit »

Every time someone posts the same thing it gets merged into this.

I think at this point it's pretty safe to say the original complaint has been solved. The efficient clear meta pre-power armor is using turrets as a firebase for cover and to fall back to, not as primary clear.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by jodokus31 »

Cribbit wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:17 pm
The efficient clear meta pre-power armor is using turrets as a firebase for cover and to fall back to, not as primary clear.
or grenades, or car, or combat robots, ...

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Cribbit »

jodokus31 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:54 pm
Cribbit wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:17 pm
The efficient clear meta pre-power armor is using turrets as a firebase for cover and to fall back to, not as primary clear.
or grenades, or car, or combat robots, ...
I meant more in terms of turret's role in combat. Those are the things you would use as your direct attacks, vs the old days of turrets doing it all.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by jodokus31 »

Cribbit wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:36 pm
jodokus31 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:54 pm
Cribbit wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:17 pm
The efficient clear meta pre-power armor is using turrets as a firebase for cover and to fall back to, not as primary clear.
or grenades, or car, or combat robots, ...
I meant more in terms of turret's role in combat. Those are the things you would use as your direct attacks, vs the old days of turrets doing it all.
Ok. I see, if turrets play a role, then it's this, instead of turret creep.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by blazespinnaker »

Pre oil, fish + grenades + heavy Armor is faster and cheaper than turrets I think. Unless coal is limited, I guess

A well placed grenade can do far more damage than the 50 damage a magazine can do and for 1 more iron.

Generally though I advise against taking out spawners unless they're harassing you a lot as it increases your EF rather quickly. Or if you're playing fairly slow and your EF is already dominated by time and pollution.

I'm not a fan of turrets as they really chew through your iron.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Rubypoker »

I find it ironic how items made for defence can be so effective offensively.
When it comes to lasers they are not an issue as the player has access to tank and Distractor capsule at that point.
Gun turrets are able to creep and clear up biter nests at a point were the player is not meant to be able to push yet. But a experience player will likely be able to unlock grenades, flamethrower and Defender capsule fairly quickly and will never really need to turret creep in the early game. But a beginner likely will. I personally found using weapons preferable over turret creeping so I don't really think it is an issue. Turret creep can potentially allow us to clear up nest that are bigger than what we are meant to be able to handle with our teck level. But I guess it is nice to have the option to turret creep when the nearest oil is far away, and you cant teck up to compete with the biters as you need the oil to do it.

I think the main issue with turret creeping is not their effectiveness, but that new player learns that method first as it is what's available early in the game. Then they continue to use that method throughout the game instead of making weapons. I think biter fights in the tutorial mode could help against this.

Landmines is whats truly to powerful offensively. Defensive structures also don't suffer from a cool down the way grenades do.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by JaminRoyale »

You havent realised engineer is OP? When the engineer uses all his tools, there is no chance for the biters. Even max deathworld settings are EZ once you got some tech. Come play Mountain Fortress if you want a challenge.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

JaminRoyale wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:08 pm
You havent realised engineer is OP? When the engineer uses all his tools, there is no chance for the biters. Even max deathworld settings are EZ once you got some tech. Come play Mountain Fortress if you want a challenge.
This forum is not a place to advertise servers
Last edited by NotRexButCaesar on Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by JaminRoyale »

AmericanPatriot wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:12 pm
JaminRoyale wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:08 pm
You havent realised engineer is OP? When the engineer uses all his tools, there is no chance for the biters. Even max deathworld settings are EZ once you got some tech. Come play Mountain Fortress if you want a challenge.
The forum is not a place to advertise servers
It was a challenge not an advertisement. If anything I advertised a scenario, not a server.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by adamwong246 »

Is there a poll so we can accurately gauge the community's agreement with the main supposition of this thread? Like, raise your hand if you agree that "turrets make all weapons pointless" ? I browsed the responses and it seems to me it's split opinion.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Post by Koub »

adamwong246 wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:54 pm
Is there a poll so we can accurately gauge the community's agreement with the main supposition of this thread? Like, raise your hand if you agree that "turrets make all weapons pointless" ? I browsed the responses and it seems to me it's split opinion.
I'd like to remind people in here that this thread has been running since may 2014, which was before 0.10.0 was released. There has been a LOT of changes in the game, even when only considering combat related changes. Game balance is nowhere where it was almost 7 years ago.However, turret creep has existed long before Factorio was even an idea in kovarex's imagination. I remember using that strategy (and finding myself so clever to have found that kind of trick) when I was playing Dune 2. Wherever turrets exist, turret creep is a potentially valid solution. And there will always be the "turret creep is acceptable" team and the "turret creep should not be possible" team.

Back in 2014, turret creep was an overwhelmingly strong alternative to other forms of combat, given the resources needed and tech level involved.
Today, there are other very viable alternatives to turret creep, so in my opinion, the thread has shifted from "give us alternative ways to avoid turret creep without hindering ourselves too much" to "we don't want turret creep to be even an alternative, make it worse that any other solution", which I would find to be a shame.
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