Biters: The Relentless Problem

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Maelstraz
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Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by Maelstraz »

At any stage of playthrough biters can become a huge obstacle on your way. And because of raw potential they can easily get out of control.
So how to make it easier to balance? There is possible solution: additional stat called "Stamina".
[ Biters / Spitters ]
These are actually pretty fine (even the behemoths).

Stamina can be added to make them run fast only for limited amount of time.

Bonus usage: give small and medium biters an ability to climb on (technically - load in) big and behemoths biters. So huge bugs can deliver smaller (and less endurant) pals at your base fresh and ready to attack.
Bonus usage: biters can use stamina to swim, but "transport" biters is also almost unsinkable. Awesome addition for future water expansion.
[ Spawners ]
Probably the main problem of topic. Endless avalanche of cannon fodder. And you cannot just nerf the rate, this will not solve problem.

Stamina can be added as a resource to spawn biters.

Bonus usage: Spawner consumed all it's stamina become inactive until full recovery.
Bonus usage: Pollution will increace stamina regeneration rate.
Bonus usage: Another active spawners nearby will decrease stamina regeneration rate.
[ Worms ]
Ugh. This is the real reason of this topic. The concept of worms is just unhealthy: in order to attack you must got a hit (or goddamn bunch of them) OR you will not get damage at all, making worms itself completely useless.

Stamina can be added as an ammo.

Bonus usage: Finally, Distraction Capsules. Drop some of them to allow these organic turrets to unload and then enjoy lowered rate of fire.

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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by ssilk »

I don't understand, why you think that they need that. Your first sentence is an unverified assertion that I cannot comprehend.

Please make a specific example, cause that is the easiest way to explain us, why you think this is needed. :)

BTW: The "stamina" of spawners is already nerfed a bit into that direction.
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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by Maelstraz »

Imagine the goddamn wall of spawners and worms at the edge of your territory, which is completely normal for mid and late stages of game. :3
Just some graphics
This will work in both ways:

1) When yet another spawner is added to this wall, current power of biters almost will not grow, so crushing flow will not break through your multylayered defence.
2) When yet another spawner is destroyed in this wall, current power of swarm will remain almost same, until exhaustion.

So, basically, this will turn "long, almost impossible and probably suicidal resource-wasting siege" in just "long siege".

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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by Hexicube »

I don't understand how people have such huge issues with biters, I've played literally two games and only the second suffered attacks because it was with another person who was polluting so much you could call him a first world country. Just manage your pollution, and deal with the spawners nearby early on so they don't soak it up.

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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by ssilk »

In my opinion the curve should go into the other direction. :)

Well, the strength of the aliens is very dependend on players ability, used mods, and many more ... in my opinion part of the game. :)

Moved from suggestions to balancing, cause this is always a source of discussion. :)
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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by bobingabout »

I don't understand the need for it either, I mean, yeah, if you don't manage your pollution, you're likely to get swamped with biters, but that's just part of the challenge of the game.
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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by Maelstraz »

Hexicube wrote:Just manage your pollution
bobingabout wrote:if you don't manage your pollution
THIS is the problem. Boolean state in everything about biters.

You doing everything silent and fast OR you gonna be overwhelmed. This is not a challenge, this is punishment.
You can overcome this hive with brute force OR you cannot. Because exact amount of brute force is the only solution.

Exhaustion mechanic will make a lot of low-level (like turret rush and even car and tank) / tricky (like distracton) mechanic pretty viable. And, in my opinion, chooses (when you pick your favored weapon) is way better than decisions (when you pick just stronger one).

The only problem with this suggestion is that is artificial. At this moment biters just don't have any incoming recourses, so you cannot deal with this resource flow in order to decrease spawn rates.

Once again: the problem is with low variety and a lot of absolutes.

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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by Koub »

Combat is supposed to be revamped in 0.13. I admit I put a HUGE loag of expectations on this revamp.
Cause I feel a little like OP, I'm unsatisfied by what's currently in game for the combat part, but can't thing of an ultimately good solution - and I hope the Devs have somehow managed to do so.
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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by Hexicube »

Maelstraz wrote:
Hexicube wrote:Just manage your pollution
bobingabout wrote:if you don't manage your pollution
THIS is the problem. Boolean state in everything about biters.

You doing everything silent and fast OR you gonna be overwhelmed. This is not a challenge, this is punishment.
You can overcome this hive with brute force OR you cannot. Because exact amount of brute force is the only solution.

Exhaustion mechanic will make a lot of low-level (like turret rush and even car and tank) / tricky (like distracton) mechanic pretty viable. And, in my opinion, chooses (when you pick your favored weapon) is way better than decisions (when you pick just stronger one).

The only problem with this suggestion is that is artificial. At this moment biters just don't have any incoming recourses, so you cannot deal with this resource flow in order to decrease spawn rates.

Once again: the problem is with low variety and a lot of absolutes.
As I recall, the more you pollute the worse attack forces get. Early on in the second game we were only just polluting a couple bases and saw attack forces of at most 5 biters, though almost always 2. We were able to defend using the starting weaponry, and eventually had to upgrade to the SMG to deal with the slightly larger forces.

We had a sudden pollution spike (think 2 stone furnaces changing to 40), and all of a sudden these waves are in the double digits, routinely hitting 20. At this stage, our SMGs with AP rounds and shotguns were only just able to deal with attack waves, and occasionally a small wave from another base just in pollution range would attack at the same time (out of sheer coincidence), causing us to lose power to miners for a minute or so. Since then, I've built a wall with turrets using AP rounds, and spitters starting spawning a couple hours later (which is way earlier than my first game, at a mere 8 hours compared to 20).

There's nothing boolean about it, the more you pollute the worse it gets. I'll accept there's a little jump between "no attacks" and "attacks", since that's 100% dependant on if you're polluting their bases and there's no way to send fractional amounts of biters, but everything past that scales. Also, if you're polluting more bases, it'll obviously be worse, the aforementioned side attacks were only a couple biters whilst the main forces were in the tens. Attacks from a base are solely based on pollution to that specific base.

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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by Koub »

What I don't like is the time related evolution factor. Hate that one. I don't like the idea that even if from start I do all what I can not to pollute, eventually, biters will be as mad as if I had polluted like a bastard.
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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by bobingabout »

Koub wrote:What I don't like is the time related evolution factor. Hate that one. I don't like the idea that even if from start I do all what I can not to pollute, eventually, biters will be as mad as if I had polluted like a bastard.
At least that can be changed via modding. there's probably a few mods out there that do it already.
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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by Koub »

Sure : even I know how to do it :) Bue when I talk about the game, I always think "Vanilla". Because I'm against the idea that mods are a must have for a pleasant experience.
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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by bobingabout »

Koub wrote:Sure : even I know how to do it :) Bue when I talk about the game, I always think "Vanilla". Because I'm against the idea that mods are a must have for a pleasant experience.
Indeed, I do agree with what you're saying though, I dislike the timescale evolution too.
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Re: Biters: The Relentless Problem

Post by Hexicube »

Koub wrote:Sure : even I know how to do it :) Bue when I talk about the game, I always think "Vanilla". Because I'm against the idea that mods are a must have for a pleasant experience.
I'm usually the same, but at the same time I think it's excusable in EA where you can suggest changes to balance whilst also enjoying the game with those changes being made by a mod.

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