Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

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Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby Outershift » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:48 am

Is it me or Bitters hard to kill even with Fully Upgraded Weapons, Especially when they swarm?
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby Nova » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:16 pm

In end game? No. Use the combat shotgun, piercing round munition, and research more damage and higher speed for the shotgun. Use the power armor mk 2 with 2 portable fusion generators, 4 batteries mk 2, 2 exo skeleton, and as much shields as possible.
kovarex says, it's much easier to use the battle robots, but in my opinion, this way is better. ^^
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby TGS » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:36 pm

I really think it depends on the person and their strategy. However as Nova said. With proper tech researched they pretty much become fodder.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby Balinor » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:29 pm

My personal opinion is yes they are too hard, but then I'm not a spring chicken any more and have some issues with hand mobility and such which makes it artificially harder.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby inzain » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:37 pm

as stated above, if approached properly, with a working setup, they're fodder. I myself choose to use the destroyer bots. with them, the game difficulty goes from difficult to easy immediately.

prior to mk2 armor, you can have 9 destroyer bots, after your first base kill(i use the turret attack advance combo for the first kill) but beyond that fist base, i research robot count, and robot damage solely, until i get to about 19 count(which is only 2 upgrades), and +3 to +4 damage (this eats up all your alien artifacts from several bases) but at that point it goes from medium to cake difficulty wise. once you get beyond 20 robot count, and max robot damage, wearing even the mk1 suit with say, 3 shields, a couple batteries, a reactor, and a exo suit, i can literally walk into the middle of a base, with 4-5 spawners and 5+ worms, half being big, and so long as i watch my robot count and keep it above 15ish, i slaughter them without even firing a shot. the robots literally become laser turrets after +2 to +3 damage. so its like walking into a base with 20+ laser turrets. the only time i run out is if by chance the worms focus on me, which is semi rare, usually they fire at my robots, taking 2 hits per robot to kill or thereabouts, so i pop another capsule bringing 5 new ones out and sit and watch the slaughter.

as to the combat shotgun, i cant comment, i found it useless with my approach, so its still unmade in my game. but as the game stands now, the only difficulty in the approach i take, is the first base, and id rate, medium difficulty getting about 50 or so artifacts after that base, beyond that point, its boring, id almost like the difficulty increased, because it was much funner having to strategise those first few bases.

i'm not an expert, and by all means don't mean to lessen your struggle, but if you haven't approached the robot side of the game, you should try it, its wicked easy.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby LoSboccacc » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:52 pm

I think then there is too much difference between the 'experimenting phase' when you don't have a strategy and everything you do waste tons of resource, and the 'expert phase' where you lolstomp everything.


anyway, I like stomping everything when I have unlocked it all - makes sense and it is rewarding: I hate game where difficulty scales with you.


how you get that many robots? I have count level 4 and when I pop a capsule the previous 5 robots despawn
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby TGS » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:56 pm

LoSboccacc wrote:I think then there is too much difference between the 'experimenting phase' when you don't have a strategy and everything you do waste tons of resource, and the 'expert phase' where you lolstomp everything.


anyway, I like stomping everything when I have unlocked it all - makes sense and it is rewarding: I hate game where difficulty scales with you.


how you get that many robots? I have count level 4 and when I pop a capsule the previous 5 robots despawn

There is a lot of truth to this. There does appear to be a considerable 'leap' in the game. And I know myself I tend to focus more on my factory than on any form of offensive capability. I build laser defenses, don't bother upgrading them (or anything else) until well after I have logistic bots and pretty much everything factory wise requires Scipack 3's. And I've personally found that this progression pattern can be very destructive on a 'bad' map. Meaning you'll find yourself in a position where you might run out of resources to continue progressing at all without taking on biters. And if you don't have the higher end offensive techs the biters can be very difficult due to their respawn. They themselves aren't hard. But the fact that they respawn as fast as they do can make them hard. Until you progress through the military techs you aren't exactly a force to be reckoned with. In fact you are very fragile. But once they add the tank that might hopefully bridge things a bit. I'm hoping they make it like a military 2-3 + vehicle 2 requirement or something. That way if you focused heavily on factory and you end up without power armor you can at least progress with the tank.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby Ardagan » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:16 am

hm... my 5 cents again...
I can automate everything, but why can't I automate hunt for spawners and alien artifacts? :(
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby ssilk » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:24 am

I take that as rhetorical question, because the answer is, that we don't know.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby SilverWarior » Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:06 pm

Ardagan wrote:I can automate everything, but why can't I automate hunt for spawners and alien artifacts? :(


For that developers would have to make a bit more advanced AI that the "storm" one bites now use.
I'm certain you would hate to see vaves of your "attack bots" to be destroyed just becouse their AI is to dumb for them to be effective (waves size doesn't match the enem powe so they don't have a chance for instance). Yust take a look at how easy you can defend your base by building some wals and laser turrets.
Now development of such smart AI whic would be able to ases the posible threat and use suficient size of attack force would require weeks if not even months of development. Not to mention if you wanna this AI to be able to find a weak spot in alien defences.
So without such AI you would be soon shouting "athleast give us then the ability to controll these atack bots as in some RTS". But that is not the desired direction of Factorio at the moment.

Anywhay if you could automate spawner hunting the game would probably become quite boring after some time (just sitting in your base and waiting for more alien artifacts to be returned). Right now fighting biters and aquiring alien artifacts offers some additiona challenge.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby malokin » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:00 pm

I hope they delete this thread the day nukes are put into the game. Every time i see a giant bug base, I want to irradiate them SOOOOOOO BADLY. Depleted uranium bullets from your nuclear reactor would make a nice end-tier bullet option.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby DisSsha » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:37 pm

Currently I am surrounded by a lot of beast and the only way I get to kill them is to use tower attack. :evil:
Laser turrets are so powerful that I just put 9 Turrets next to the spawner and an electric pole and the do the job.

I have a lot (I think) pollution in my game, and this is probably why I can't get out easily.

This is quite boring to clean and I am a little discouraged trying to clear my map then use the rails network & train.

I think my strategy is Uber and an electrical charge delay for Laser Turrets will be nice to delete it.

Caution, I really love this game, it's just an observation. :oops:

Sorry for my english, french don't like it :D
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby ssilk » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:00 pm

Going with the lasers is boring. Yes. Try the capsules!
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby BurnHard » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:03 pm

Try to get a modular armour with some shields, an upgraded (combat) shotgun with piercing ammo and use the capsules, a lot :) Thats a lot faster and easier than that annoying laser tower-strategy for offensive.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby ssilk » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:09 pm

In later game you will find biter nests, which are so big, that you don't have a chance against them. 200 lasers or so, just overrun. With capsules: No problem. Some destructor, some slow down (40-60 needed!). Finish.

I admit, this is a problem, if you don't have researched that yet or don't have enough resources, but that is a completely different game.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby Zourin » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:52 am

My problem isn't so much the 'end game', that's when you're supposed to have all the combat techs available, researched, and you go on the murder sprees for alien artifacts to finish the game.

My problem is that biters are too hard at the START of the game. I'm constantly finding myself penned in with a submachine gun, maybe armor peircing rounds, a suit of heavy armor, and I STILL can't go toe to toe with something that's been harassing me since the start of the game.

The big problem with all of it? They spawn too fast. In fact, they spawn instantly. That has to go. Once I deal with the defenders, I should be open to at least damage their infrastructure before the next wave. One or two nests, maybe not so bad, but five and medium/large worms while dealing with fifteen instant respawns? BS.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby ssilk » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:24 pm

Zourin wrote:My problem isn't so much the 'end game', that's when you're supposed to have all the combat techs available, researched, and you go on the murder sprees for alien artifacts to finish the game.

My problem is that biters are too hard at the START of the game. I'm constantly finding myself penned in with a submachine gun, maybe armor peircing rounds, a suit of heavy armor, and I STILL can't go toe to toe with something that's been harassing me since the start of the game.

Then don't do it? You don't have a chance, without some development. :)

The big problem with all of it? They spawn too fast. In fact, they spawn instantly. That has to go. Once I deal with the defenders, I should be open to at least damage their infrastructure before the next wave. One or two nests, maybe not so bad, but five and medium/large worms while dealing with fifteen instant respawns? BS.

Then you need be very gentle to the biters and make low polution setup, so that they won't bother you too much, until you at the same level. Nobody said, this game is easy. But good, that you tried it. The most players don't like that, too.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby Sir Nick » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:00 am

As I got it, attacking a biter base early is feasible only if you already have an assault rifle, piercing bullets AND the base is small (5 nest absolute max, no big biters, few mediums). Then you stand a chance, even better with steel armour.

For midgame, I found that a car for mobility and two rocket launchers armed with rockets and explosive rockets do the trick. You circle the nest, blast away at spawners, when car health gets low or the horde at your heels gets uncomfortable get out of there and blast the horde to smithereens. Repeat until done. A few levels in rocket shooting speed are excessively nice. The drawback is the need to do the driving without colliding with the horde. Another drawback is that you won't be able to do much to woodland bases. And do not, repeat DO NOT forget repair packs.

Finally, endgame brings power armour and all the niceties. You get into PA, equip 3 exosceletons, 2 reactors, several MK2 shields, use the same rocket setup (and yeah, all 5 rocket shooting speed researches) and you are able to take out any base. Still requires a bit of caution and running, but it is easier that the car and the shields regenerate on their own.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby Zourin » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:29 am

ssilk wrote:
Zourin wrote:My problem isn't so much the 'end game', that's when you're supposed to have all the combat techs available, researched, and you go on the murder sprees for alien artifacts to finish the game.

My problem is that biters are too hard at the START of the game. I'm constantly finding myself penned in with a submachine gun, maybe armor peircing rounds, a suit of heavy armor, and I STILL can't go toe to toe with something that's been harassing me since the start of the game.

Then don't do it? You don't have a chance, without some development. :)

The big problem with all of it? They spawn too fast. In fact, they spawn instantly. That has to go. Once I deal with the defenders, I should be open to at least damage their infrastructure before the next wave. One or two nests, maybe not so bad, but five and medium/large worms while dealing with fifteen instant respawns? BS.

Then you need be very gentle to the biters and make low polution setup, so that they won't bother you too much, until you at the same level. Nobody said, this game is easy. But good, that you tried it. The most players don't like that, too.



There is absolutely ZERO chance a player has against a simple, single Big Worm. Once you see a big worm, that base is untouchable, no matter how close it is. It 3-shots players with heavy armor, will absolutely WRECK cars, and it outranges gun turrets PLUS player reach. You want to know how often I wind up with big worms parked right outside my base? Every f'king time. Whether it's just 1-2, or one conveniently parked alongside a SINGLE spawner nest (sometimes 3 big worms), I find myself sieged in rather tight to my starting area. Military 1&2, suicide. Cars? suicide. Military 3? Suicide. Maybe, just maybe, you cower inside your base for long enough to get modular armor.

Gun turrets need serious buffage at some point. If the idea for combat in the game is to be sieged into your base until the very last moments, it's not going to take off. Players want to go out and 'get some' when there's a red blip between them and something they want to keep playing, and being sieged because a Big Worm is right outside isn't a very good way to go. The thought that big worms outrange player's build reach PLUS the gun turret ranges, there's a problem. The game doesn't allow you to play smart, but instead, resort to bad gameplay reminiscent of my noobie Starcraft days where I just turtle the F up until I have max-supply battlecruisers.

Endgame, the herds can get rediculous, but it shouldn't come to that. Players should be able to go out and 'thin the herds' at just about any stage, as long as they're keeping up on their combat tech. They shouldn't have to wait until they have a hundred drones, endgame power armor, and megacomplexes pumping out laser turrets before setting foot outside their starting area.

The game does need a balancing tweak with the Worms. Things should be manageable early on, and if there's a biter camp in the way within the first hour or so, Military 1 or Military 2 should be sufficient to clear the way. Mil1/mil2 stage Big Worms shouldn't be generated. Maybe at the modular armor stage, but even that's a pretty thin personal defense.

I'm not asking for a free ride, but there isn't even an opportunity to 'play smart'.
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Re: Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

Postby ssilk » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:06 am

Well, when I see them, I run... to my upgraded turrets, which are loaded with piercing bullets. They make biter marmalade out of it... I scrub it from ground and put it on my breakfast bread. It's best, when already warm... :)

Again: you can't win this game by fighting. You need to built. And think. Much more, than in other games. Not everybody likes it.

I'm not a fast player, don't take me as reference, but in my best games I need about 4-6 hours to be able to have a little chance against them. So as conclusion: if you fight too early, if you make it too radical, you can't win.
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