Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

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coppercoil
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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by coppercoil »

ptx0 wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:08 pm
we've been over this before. vanilla doesn't have that requirement. if you want a "true puzzle", how about you play the game without asking for more energy consumption to suit an arbitrary reason?
Yay, you spent some time to do a homework :mrgreen:. That change would not break any suit abilities, just requires maintenance. If you don't agree, go and post your reply in that thread.

FuryoftheStars
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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by FuryoftheStars »

coppercoil wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:40 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:01 pm
Hey, btw, would you be willing to share a BP of the layout you don't think could be better compacted etc?
Violet science 600 spm, this setup was pretty challenging.
Thanks. And yeah, LH inserters are definitely not a bottleneck for this setup.

Quick note: it looks like this setup, as is, is actually averaging a little under 600 SPM (~590). Throwing an extra speed module into the first electric furnace assembler seems to fix this (~610).
coppercoil wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:40 pm
You can see I have few additional rules: design must be slim, material input is strictly on the one side, and I never ever take or place items on an underground belt or splitter.
(Color emphasis mine.)
So, yeah, if you're going to be setting these weird, arbitrary use limits, of course you're not going to be able to do a setup without LH inserters. However, these arbitrary rules you're setting on yourself are, imo, not valid reasons for not making changes to inserter speeds.



So, getting rid of those restrictions I found silly, here's the setup with absolutely no LH inserters. And to boot, I made them all standard (yellow) inserters to showcase that they were not a bottleneck. :D (If you don't have any stack bonuses for non-stack inserters researched, then yes, a standard inserter will become a bottleneck.)

JPG




You'll note that the whole design is still within the same foot print as before. Only "exception" to this is the rail belt that loops around on the right. It's 1 tile further out, but still within the overall right bound set by the beacons.

coppercoil
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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by coppercoil »

Thanks for explorations. For me it runs at 620 spm. I don't know why.

There's one general rule: don't break anything, if possible. This rule is not limited to inserters, it is not limited to Factorio. It is not limited to software. It is not uncommon that some known bugs and legacy functions are kept forever - to not beak anything for people you don't known. There are people who use bugs regularly (e.g. integer overflow in C++ :mrgreen:)

I think almost every non-novice player has his own rules. If some performance change would be ok for me and you, it may definitely will break things for some others. There are thousand different playstyles, why do you focus on red inserters? Other players may have different considerations to use them. Can I say "remove ability to take items from an underground belt because this can be substituted by LH inserters"? Hell, yes, I say, you use underground belts in a wrong way, and LH inserter is a right way. In other words, "you use X wrong, use Y for that".
Haven't you said that?

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by maxim13 »

When I wrote this post, I didn't want to break anything.
It was strange to me that a long inserter is the most energy efficient, but it transports objects over long distances and faster than a regular one.
So I just suggest only increasing its power consumption. I still think 24 kW would be a good idea for this.

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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by FuryoftheStars »

coppercoil wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:31 am
Thanks for explorations. For me it runs at 620 spm. I don't know why.
Could be one of those quirks with the game, causing perfect inserter operation in some cases. Kind of like how sometimes feeding 2 fully compressed belts of two different items into a splitter that then outputs to two belts can be different from time to time (sometimes it mixes, sometimes it passes them straight through, and sometimes it causes them to wholly change belts on output).
However, doing out the math, your theoretical max output should be 612 even.
Math, if someone wants to double check me
coppercoil wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:31 am
There's one general rule: don't break anything, if possible. This rule is not limited to inserters, it is not limited to Factorio. It is not limited to software. It is not uncommon that some known bugs and legacy functions are kept forever - to not beak anything for people you don't known. There are people who use bugs regularly (e.g. integer overflow in C++ :mrgreen:)
IMO, I'm against this philosophy. This is how games don't advance. The addition of features are perfectly capable of "breaking" things (fluids didn't used to exist in this game when first released, then at some point they were added as a required workflow item. They probably didn't have fluid flow simulation at first release, either, and this was added later. And imagine if they added the "feature" that nuclear reactors had a meltdown if they hit or were left at 1000 degrees for too long...), and bugs should not be left because it might ruin someone's workflow (obligatory comic reference :lol: ).
coppercoil wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:31 am
I think almost every non-novice player has his own rules. If some performance change would be ok for me and you, it may definitely will break things for some others. There are thousand different playstyles, why do you focus on red inserters? Other players may have different considerations to use them.
And this only further drives that point home. If there were never any changes made to the game because it's not how someone else plays with it, then there would never be any changes made.
(And I'm focusing on LH inserters because that's what this thread is about.)
coppercoil wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 10:31 am
Can I say "remove ability to take items from an underground belt because this can be substituted by LH inserters"? Hell, yes, I say, you use underground belts in a wrong way, and LH inserter is a right way. In other words, "you use X wrong, use Y for that".
Haven't you said that?
Sure, if you want to advocate that change, go for it. I wouldn't support it for the reason that LH inserters can substitute that, though. I might under the philosophy that there's a super structure in the way.
On that note, here's another design I did up for the hey of it last night that follows your rules about never taking or placing directly from undergrounds and splitters, but still avoids LH inserters (in case a speed change to them changed the efficiency of a setup).

jpg and bp
maxim13 wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:46 am
When I wrote this post, I didn't want to break anything.
It was strange to me that a long inserter is the most energy efficient, but it transports objects over long distances and faster than a regular one.
So I just suggest only increasing its power consumption. I still think 24 kW would be a good idea for this.
Technically speaking, even a power consumption change can "break" someone's setup. Think of a scenario where someone has optimized their power usage, maybe have just enough reserve power generation to deal with defense surges. Now all their LH inserters consume more energy, it's going to eat into this and potentially put them over the top. Now they need to expand power generation, but maybe they have no room left in their current factory.

I was just adding the speed reduction as an alternative idea, not really saying that it was better or something.
Last edited by FuryoftheStars on Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ptx0
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Re: Long-handed inserters should consume more energy

Post by ptx0 »

honestly I would just ignore anyone here who keeps insisting on arguing the point, if their name isn't pink. they're just superior people with too much time on their hands. i used to be one of them, that's how i know.
My Mods - Fish Per Minute base size metric - Use your crashed spaceship as a belt balancer?
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Base: Bob's @ 1 Million SPM
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Linear search and overflows are indicative of sloppy coding practices.

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