Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby BlakeMW » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:19 am

Lav wrote:Nah, I'm saying there are situations where turret creep is still the only solution.


I'd find this debatable. For example I like to play on Deathworlds. One thing I do is run around the starting area and preemptively put turrets down on iron patches and oil patches. That way I get no nasty surprises like finding a nest with blue worms has setup shop on my oil.

Technically you can kill off at least one blue worm with a stack of grenades and a stack of fish, if you bring in some military science - and you can always research military science - you can add a Modular Armor with Energy Shields and use a swarm of 10 defender capsules to supplement the fish for damage absorb (technically they'll even do a small amount of damage to the worm) and you can get some nice bullet damage upgrades making the SMG do fairly meaningful damage. If you do have access to oil you can add a Rocket Launcher which takes down worms real quick and doesn't require blue science.

If you don't mind playing metagames, you can restart if there is no oil visible and combined with laying down turrets on the oil will guarantee no big worm problems.

So yeah, there are cases where using gun turret creep is the most convenient solution and quite possibly the sanest solution (I wouldn't call grenades+fish entirely sane), but it is far from the only solution.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Lav » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:20 am

BlakeMW wrote:
Lav wrote:Nah, I'm saying there are situations where turret creep is still the only solution.

I'd find this debatable. For example I like to play on Deathworlds. One thing I do is run around the starting area and preemptively put turrets down on iron patches and oil patches. That way I get no nasty surprises like finding a nest with blue worms has setup shop on my oil.

So you do have oil in your starting area. :-)

Preventing biters from settling on an oil patch is not the same as fighting through a dozen or two of already established nests, including nests with 20+ spawners and/or 3+ big worms - just to get your first oil pumped.

BlakeMW wrote:Technically you can kill off at least one blue worm with a stack of grenades and a stack of fish,

Sure, now try the same against three of them in close proximity, with a dozen spawners around. :-)

BlakeMW wrote:if you bring in some military science - and you can always research military science - you can add a Modular Armor with Energy Shields and use a swarm of 10 defender capsules to supplement the fish for damage absorb (technically they'll even do a small amount of damage to the worm) and you can get some nice bullet damage upgrades making the SMG do fairly meaningful damage.

And that's where you're wrong. You can research all that stuff without oil, true. But good luck producing it. Modular armor needs oil. Energy shields need oil. Defender capsules need oil. The only thing you have left is the SMG and grenades. :-D
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby BlakeMW » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:51 pm

Lav wrote:Defender capsules need oil.


You're right about the others, but surprisingly Defender Capsules do not require oil. Despite having tech pre-requisites like electric engine Defenders are pure iron and copper, their recipe is just electronic circuits, iron gears and AP ammo. Sadly they only deal 5 damage instead of the 8 damage of AP ammo - if they dealt 8 damage then with the military science bullet damage upgrades they'd rip through Big Worms quite satisfactorily, as it is if you maintain the swarm of 10 Defenders they should grind down a Big Worm in roughly a minute - quicker if you add the firepower of the SMG or Car MG which with military science damage upgrades is quite respectable against Big Worms.

I will concede it is possible to roll maps that royally screw the player in terms of oil - but a player can simply reroll until getting oil in the revealed area. A player would only be forced into turret creeping to get through to oil if they don't use this rather simple and obvious solution to ensure oil availability. Personally I think Oil should be a guaranteed starting area resource as it used to be - even if it's only 1 or 2 puny wells. I often play on Deathworlds with enhanced biter settings or reduced starting area sizes or just generally ways to make it more masochistic - but I do reroll until I have at least an oil patch in the revealed area. Because even gun turret creeping is seriously painful against more than 1 big worm: having to fight through several large nests to get to oil would be an awful grind, gun turret creeping works but it doesn't work well because they barely overcome the physical resists of the Big Worm, are significantly out ranged by Big Worms and die quickly to Big Worm spitballs.

edit: It should also be mentioned that oil-less starts are the exception not the rule. Out of curiously I tried rolling a bunch of deathworlds, it seems about 20-30% have no oil in the revealed area. After rolling about 30 deathworlds I finally found one where the nearest oil was further than the nearest Big Worm - though in that case the oil was not actually protected by Big Worm - it just could have been.
For fun I cheated in the military science techs to try out low-tech Big Worm slaying. With Heavy Armor the SMG+Fish was quite effective, Heavy Armor makes the player nearly immune to small biters so you can just run up and face-tank (or fish tank) the Big Worm and biters while gunning down the worm with the SMG. You probably do want those bullet damage upgrades though. Grenades also pretty effective though more awkward with need to swap between grenade and fish. Car also proved respectable, mainly because the significantly longer range and fire rate of the Car MG made it effective for cutting down the spawners and worms around the big worm. Taking down two Big Worms simultaneously was not as hard as I thought it would be and I was in no risk of dying: but I did use everything: 10 Defenders, SMG, Grenades and Fish. I also took down a nest with 3 Big Worms though it was very hard and approaching the limits of what felt possible and it was easy to die.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Lav » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:28 pm

BlakeMW wrote:You're right about the others, but surprisingly Defender Capsules do not require oil.

Hmm, indeed they don't. Weird, I was so sure they do. Bad me. :-/

BlakeMW wrote:I will concede it is possible to roll maps that royally screw the player in terms of oil - but a player can simply reroll until getting oil in the revealed area.

That's an option, sure, but it depends on what goals do you set for yourself when you play. If your objective is to build a megafactory, re-rolling is ok. But I treat the game as a war of conquest against the bugs, and in this scenario lack of immediately accessible oil isn't a problem - just another challenge to overcome. And it's a welcome challenge too, since after blue science the biters don't pose much threat anyway. So if you want to play Factorio as a wargame, you kinda have to fight the biters at low tech-levels to get your fun. :-)

BlakeMW wrote:Because even gun turret creeping is seriously painful against more than 1 big worm: having to fight through several large nests to get to oil would be an awful grind, gun turret creeping works but it doesn't work well because they barely overcome the physical resists of the Big Worm, are significantly out ranged by Big Worms and die quickly to Big Worm spitballs.

That's cause you don't do the gun turret creep properly. In my experience, screen-sized bases with multiple big worms are perfectly valid targets if you know what you're doing - and remain valid targets until behemoths appear. Then it gets slightly more complicated. :-)

BlakeMW wrote:edit: It should also be mentioned that oil-less starts are the exception not the rule. Out of curiously I tried rolling a bunch of deathworlds, it seems about 20-30% have no oil in the revealed area. After rolling about 30 deathworlds I finally found one where the nearest oil was further than the nearest Big Worm - though in that case the oil was not actually protected by Big Worm - it just could have been.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure big worm frequency depends on distance from the starting point, not on distance from the starting area. Which means when you play with a Very Big starting area, it's not that rare to see a big worm even at the closest nests. Combine that with Very Low oil frequency, Big of Very Big water (which "swallows" many spots that would otherwise spawn an oil patch) and Big or Very Big sized deposits of other minerals which seem to often do the same - and it's not that uncommon to see a closest oil patch about 1200-1500 tiles away from the start - that's 35 to 45 chunks away. Deathworld on the other hand is 100% vanilla in resource distribution, so it's much more "humane" in this respect.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Cribbit » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:38 pm

Default settings guarantees an oil patch in the starting area.

Pre oil weapons aren't supposed to be able to take on big worms easily and I don't think they should. If you're using custom settings (anything other than default - other pre sets are not default) then that is your challenge to try to face. Pre oil weapons are powerful enough to get you through with creativity and skill which is how it should be.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Jap2.0 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:09 pm

Cribbit wrote:Default settings guarantees an oil patch in the starting area.

Pre oil weapons aren't supposed to be able to take on big worms easily and I don't think they should. If you're using custom settings (anything other than default - other pre sets are not default) then that is your challenge to try to face. Pre oil weapons are powerful enough to get you through with creativity and skill which is how it should be.


Technically yes, but sometimes there's a lake on top of it so there isn't any :).
That'sw at least true for ores, I'm fairly certain it's true for oil as well.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby n7m6e7 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:05 pm

Cribbit wrote:
Also, can you post a video of you managing to get turrets up vs several big worms with a simple 30 second activation delay? Without losing dozens of turrets.


Well. That's kinda why turret creeping is OP. You would be automating turrets and ammo anyways for military science. So who cares if you lose a few dozen turrets...when you can carry a few hundred with you?
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Cribbit » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:18 pm

n7m6e7 wrote:
Cribbit wrote:
Also, can you post a video of you managing to get turrets up vs several big worms with a simple 30 second activation delay? Without losing dozens of turrets.


Well. That's kinda why turret creeping is OP. You would be automating turrets and ammo anyways for military science. So who cares if you lose a few dozen turrets...when you can carry a few hundred with you?


If you're willing to take those sort of losses then that's fine. I don't think turret creep should be eliminated (they could easily disallow turret placement within a radius of a spawner/worm), just made to not be by far the best way to clear biter bases.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby JohnyDL » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:20 am

I might debate easily but that would be doable but I don't think removing or nerfing something that is so relied upon by people who don't like the combat options but enjoy the challenge of defending from biters is fair. I suppose it's less critical in 0.15 because no alien blood science but still there is value in the pressures of defending from Biters even if you don't like the attacking of them. Like the forcing a player to design better compact bases or do things with limited resources.

I see no problem in you not using turret creep 'cause it's OP' and letting me use it if I want to, but you're arguing about removing something which will turn non combat oriented players from 'biters are annoying but I can handle them with turrets' to 'well biters are impossible to deal with I'll never turn them on again... oh look there's even ways to do that which don't disable achievements goody.' And who benefits from that, well those players don't because they turn off a significant challenge, and you don't because you weren't using it anyway so your task of making the game more interesting for everyone fails because rather than engaging the people who use turret creep and bringing them on board with the many other possibilities you've turned them off. And the game continues but now with the biter players saying "there shouldn't be a way to turn off biters it makes the game to easy" and the former turret creepers saying "come on give us a break or we can't enjoy our games the way we want to."
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby mrvn » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:06 am

quyxkh wrote:A powerup delay will barely even slow down turret creep as a tactic unless the powerup delay is made very large, just drop your first turret(s) outside the biter-response range, wait out the power-up delay once, and commence creeping as per usual.

Here's a turret delay mod to demonstrate:
TurretDelay_0.0.0.zip


It defaults to a five-second powerup delay and the factory limit on the option is up to an hour.


A powerup delay isn't supposed to prevent you shooting bitters. Try attacking worms with that. A 5s powerup delay means the worm has 5 extra seconds to shoot your turret before it takes any damage. In those 5 seconds you are going to loose turrets against a nest of worms. Try 30s and you might not have any turrets survive to fire a single shot.

As long as turrets have a shorter attack radius than the worm the powerup delay will weaken turrets making other weapons relatively better. At the end of the game I find nukes are far more fun and effective than turret creep. But there is a long time between getting laser turrets and getting (enough) nukes.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Lav » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:41 am

mrvn wrote:A powerup delay isn't supposed to prevent you shooting bitters. Try attacking worms with that. A 5s powerup delay means the worm has 5 extra seconds to shoot your turret before it takes any damage. In those 5 seconds you are going to loose turrets against a nest of worms. Try 30s and you might not have any turrets survive to fire a single shot.

As long as turrets have a shorter attack radius than the worm the powerup delay will weaken turrets making other weapons relatively better. At the end of the game I find nukes are far more fun and effective than turret creep. But there is a long time between getting laser turrets and getting (enough) nukes.

The problem with the startup delay is that it doesn't make the game better in any way, shape or form. Instead it makes the game worse and more annoying for a considerable fraction of the player base. It doesn't even make the game better for those who don't like turret creep because they don't use it anyway.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby mrvn » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:39 pm

Lav wrote:
mrvn wrote:A powerup delay isn't supposed to prevent you shooting bitters. Try attacking worms with that. A 5s powerup delay means the worm has 5 extra seconds to shoot your turret before it takes any damage. In those 5 seconds you are going to loose turrets against a nest of worms. Try 30s and you might not have any turrets survive to fire a single shot.

As long as turrets have a shorter attack radius than the worm the powerup delay will weaken turrets making other weapons relatively better. At the end of the game I find nukes are far more fun and effective than turret creep. But there is a long time between getting laser turrets and getting (enough) nukes.

The problem with the startup delay is that it doesn't make the game better in any way, shape or form. Instead it makes the game worse and more annoying for a considerable fraction of the player base. It doesn't even make the game better for those who don't like turret creep because they don't use it anyway.


I was only commenting on it's effectiveness. Not weather the game should have turret creep or not.

Note: Bobs mods have sniper turrets. They have a longer range but lower repetition. So you can attack worms with the sniper turret but bitters will overwhelm them. You have to protect them with normal turrets. I think that need to combine weapons makes the game more interesting. There should be more such combination warfare.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Lav » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:26 pm

mrvn wrote:Note: Bobs mods have sniper turrets. They have a longer range but lower repetition. So you can attack worms with the sniper turret but bitters will overwhelm them. You have to protect them with normal turrets. I think that need to combine weapons makes the game more interesting. There should be more such combination warfare.

Now this is an idea I would enthusiastically support.
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