Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby BlakeMW » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:18 am

Turrets vs biters doesn't matter anymore because there are really good mobile options like Tank MG+Poison and Nukes, even in the early game you can use SMG or Car MG to gun down spawners because regular bullets now have a base damage of 5 instead of 2 (if gunning down nests it's helpful to have a few grenades for personal defense). Sure, you can still use offensive turreting and sometimes it is convenient, but the player is hardly forced into it, there are viable alternatives. In particular, in the end game once upon a time about the only way to take on the largest nests was offensive laser turrets, now you can simply evaporate them with nukes.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby MeduSalem » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:37 am

People still use turret creeping as an offensive strategy? :roll:

I actually do it all with Destroyer Capsules in an old hardcore savegame (before the difficulty settings like death world were a thing, but as far as I have seen in the hardcore setting the spawner placement is pretty much as dense as in a death world). And if they get too close they get toasted by my Flamethrower.



Or is the problem that there are still no viable options during midgame when one doesn't have nukes or destroyer capsules and modular armor and stuff?

Maybe someone can clear me up because I don't feel like reading through 5 pages of circular discussion.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Zavian » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:52 am

Some people, including myself, lack the hand-eye coordination to enjoy fighting biters. Turret creep is a simple and easy way to kill biters that doesn't actually require anything in the way of being coordinated. I'm sure a lot of players find it boring. Some undoubtedly consider it overpowered. But back in 0.14 it was the only option I had that didn't result in me dieing far too often. It became my default combat option for mid to late game. (Even in 0.15 if I'm fighting on foot before laser turrets are available I'll still put a couple of turrets down to give me fire support/kill biters whilst I'm taking out spawners/worms).
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby n7m6e7 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:53 am

Cribbit wrote:
quyxkh wrote:An activation delay would be ineffective. Drop a turret just outside biter-response range, wait out the delay, drop your next nearby but just inside response range, lather, rinse, repeat.

If you want scarier biter behavior, get Rampant. They're not "clever girl" smart, but they'll mess you up pretty bad if you dis them.


It should still be a viable strategy to build a well defended outpost then lure biters there so that you can go up against a less defended base. What shouldn't be viable is turrets vs worms and spawners.
.


I agree wholeheartedly. Turrets shouldn't be used against worms and spawners. With that in mind, do worms and spitters use the same projectiles? And if not, can the worms be tweaked to deal more damage specifically to turrets? Letting them one-shot turrets. Maybe even turn worms into a biter "flamethrower" defence. Spitting acid that leaves aoe puddles. So you can't just plop down defenses in their front yard.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby BlakeMW » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:57 am

MeduSalem wrote:Or is the problem that there are still no viable options during midgame when one doesn't have nukes or destroyer capsules and modular armor and stuff?


The most genuinely awkward phase is taking out Big Worms before you've unlocked Military 3 for Poison Capsules and the Tank comes with the next tech - either will take down Big Worms with utter ease.

The easiest way to kill Big Worms before Military 3 is the Gun Turret with AP Ammo (and damage upgrades!), the Laser Turret or (slightly awkwardly) the Flame Turret.

The thing is that Big Worms don't really appear in the starting area and you should be able to unlock Military 3 before leaving the starting area - although there can be exceptions, it is not impossible that the only oil is outside the starting area and locked down by Big Worms. In that case the Gun Turret with AP Ammo is your only real option for breaking the stranglehold on oil.

I believe it is fully intentional that Big Worms are nearly impossible to deal with before Military 3, they are a deliberate constraint on expansion. But on the other hand there needs to be some last resort methods for dealing with them: like turrets.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Cribbit » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:00 pm

n7m6e7 wrote:
Cribbit wrote:
quyxkh wrote:An activation delay would be ineffective. Drop a turret just outside biter-response range, wait out the delay, drop your next nearby but just inside response range, lather, rinse, repeat.

If you want scarier biter behavior, get Rampant. They're not "clever girl" smart, but they'll mess you up pretty bad if you dis them.


It should still be a viable strategy to build a well defended outpost then lure biters there so that you can go up against a less defended base. What shouldn't be viable is turrets vs worms and spawners.
.


I agree wholeheartedly. Turrets shouldn't be used against worms and spawners. With that in mind, do worms and spitters use the same projectiles? And if not, can the worms be tweaked to deal more damage specifically to turrets? Letting them one-shot turrets. Maybe even turn worms into a biter "flamethrower" defence. Spitting acid that leaves aoe puddles. So you can't just plop down defenses in their front yard.


Puddles seems like a good mechanic because it also forces players on foot to strategize more. You can no longer just park yourself/tank and fire away, you have to actually keep moving.

Only thing is the puddles would have to also disable the turrets or kill them really fast because players can still substation + place 10 turrets in under a second. Or make the puddles splash pretty big so you have to space stuff out.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Koub » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:46 pm

I actually would love to see spawners produce creep (the slime type creep :)), similar to the one zerg hives produce (just an example, starcraft is not the only game where creep is produced, that prevents building, just the more famous).
The longer a spawner would have existed, the more creep there would be around it. Upon discovery, creep would have to be generated depending how much time has elapsed since the beginning of the map. It could also be partly proportional to pollution absorbed by spawners. You want to build somewhere ? Either destroy the spawners and wait (a long time), or burn it with fire to make it disappear more quickly.

The idea is not to have a mechanic specifically targeted to prevent turret creep artificially, because it would feel so unimmersive, but if making turret creep less "I win" a solution as a side effect of a really cool game mechanic, I'd find it a good thing.

I know I have posted once or twice about that these last years, but I still think it would be an elegant solution to the utmost.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Cribbit » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:13 pm

Koub wrote:I actually would love to see spawners produce creep (the slime type creep :)), similar to the one zerg hives produce (just an example, starcraft is not the only game where creep is produced, that prevents building, just the more famous).
The longer a spawner would have existed, the more creep there would be around it. Upon discovery, creep would have to be generated depending how much time has elapsed since the beginning of the map. It could also be partly proportional to pollution absorbed by spawners. You want to build somewhere ? Either destroy the spawners and wait (a long time), or burn it with fire to make it disappear more quickly.

The idea is not to have a mechanic specifically targeted to prevent turret creep artificially, because it would feel so unimmersive, but if making turret creep less "I win" a solution as a side effect of a really cool game mechanic, I'd find it a good thing.

I know I have posted once or twice about that these last years, but I still think it would be an elegant solution to the utmost.


I think a creep system would have to be producing creep with pollution. Every spawner starts with some base radius of creep and it expands with pollution. Time based just means that every spawner will always have max creep when you find it.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Postby mrvn » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:20 pm

ssilk wrote:It is already planned (if not coded) that we cannot built anything near to the villages.


AAI mod already has it. Although the result is bad with construction robots. They simply palce the items on the ground instead of building them.

What are your plans there? What happens when a ghost is to near a village?
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Koub » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:24 pm

Cribbit wrote:I think a creep system would have to be producing creep with pollution. Every spawner starts with some base radius of creep and it expands with pollution. Time based just means that every spawner will always have max creep when you find it.

Who said there should be a maximum ? :) but I totally see your point. It could be generated depending on all a number of factors like :
- time
- pollution absorbed
- evolution factor
- ...
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby mrvn » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:27 pm

Cribbit wrote:
Koub wrote:I actually would love to see spawners produce creep (the slime type creep :)), similar to the one zerg hives produce (just an example, starcraft is not the only game where creep is produced, that prevents building, just the more famous).
The longer a spawner would have existed, the more creep there would be around it. Upon discovery, creep would have to be generated depending how much time has elapsed since the beginning of the map. It could also be partly proportional to pollution absorbed by spawners. You want to build somewhere ? Either destroy the spawners and wait (a long time), or burn it with fire to make it disappear more quickly.

The idea is not to have a mechanic specifically targeted to prevent turret creep artificially, because it would feel so unimmersive, but if making turret creep less "I win" a solution as a side effect of a really cool game mechanic, I'd find it a good thing.

I know I have posted once or twice about that these last years, but I still think it would be an elegant solution to the utmost.


I think a creep system would have to be producing creep with pollution. Every spawner starts with some base radius of creep and it expands with pollution. Time based just means that every spawner will always have max creep when you find it.


Would that mean you can only destroy villages with bullets/lasers at the start of the game, when creep has not grown yet, or outside the pollution zone? In other case you would have to use a flame thrower to burn a path to the village first? What about grenades and rockets or even nukes? Or can you simply shoot the creep?

Can you walk / drive on creep? Does that trigger an attack? Does burning creep trigger an attack?

Wouldn't that mean you simply have to creep with a flamethrower + laser turret combo? More complex but you could still turret creep.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Cribbit » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:30 pm

There was https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-160 a bit ago that mentioned wanting to use turret power up time to limit turret creep.

Then https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-169 covered turret creep a bit more, saying that they want to avoid a creep-style fix and didn't like power up time due to "annoyance".

My view is that power up time is the way to go. This also means that players have to actually plan their base defenses properly or fend off attacks themselves. If you want to set up an outpost to lure biters back to you still easily can, but you won't be able to plop a bunch of turrets right in an enemy base and ez win.

I think it should also be combined with worms leaving acid patches though. It makes for more interesting combat as it forces players to move or prioritize the worms.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby quyxkh » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:27 pm

A powerup delay will barely even slow down turret creep as a tactic unless the powerup delay is made very large, just drop your first turret(s) outside the biter-response range, wait out the power-up delay once, and commence creeping as per usual.

Here's a turret delay mod to demonstrate:
TurretDelay_0.0.0.zip
Configurable-delay turret activation, default 5 seconds
(1.52 KiB) Downloaded 4 times


It defaults to a five-second powerup delay and the factory limit on the option is up to an hour.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Cribbit » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:02 am

quyxkh wrote:A powerup delay will barely even slow down turret creep as a tactic unless the powerup delay is made very large, just drop your first turret(s) outside the biter-response range, wait out the power-up delay once, and commence creeping as per usual.

Here's a turret delay mod to demonstrate:
TurretDelay_0.0.0.zip


It defaults to a five-second powerup delay and the factory limit on the option is up to an hour.


I've said it before but that's a valid strategy that shouldn't be taken away. Setting up a gun outpost to lure biters into / provide cover fire for you is fine. What's overpowered and devalues combat is being able to use the turrets against the base itself. Turrets should be very difficult to get into a position to shoot at worms or spawners.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby quyxkh » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:50 am

Cribbit wrote:Turrets should be very difficult to get into a position to shoot at worms or spawners.


The point of the mod is to demonstrate to anyone who cares to try it that a powerup delay can't accomplish that. You're far from the first to claim it can, and the claims have been so persistent (and I've been so brainless, so often) that I began to doubt my conclusions, so I wrote the mod and tried it. Now I'm sure, and I've got a mod to prove it: all a powerup delay can do is turn a boring but fairly rapid exercise into its just-as-effective-but-now-boring-and-deathly-dull relative. Try the mod, see if you can find a delay setting that produces good results. If you can, great, post the setting and the whole conversation will have something concrete to work with.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Cribbit » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:56 am

quyxkh wrote:
Cribbit wrote:Turrets should be very difficult to get into a position to shoot at worms or spawners.


The point of the mod is to demonstrate to anyone who cares to try it that a powerup delay can't accomplish that. You're far from the first to claim it can, and the claims have been so persistent (and I've been so brainless, so often) that I began to doubt my conclusions, so I wrote the mod and tried it. Now I'm sure, and I've got a mod to prove it: all a powerup delay can do is turn a boring but fairly rapid exercise into its just-as-effective-but-now-boring-and-deathly-dull relative. Try the mod, see if you can find a delay setting that produces good results. If you can, great, post the setting and the whole conversation will have something concrete to work with.


If it takes longer then it still accomplishes the goal - make it less viable. The whole point is that you should be using actual weapons, not turrets, in your main assault.

Also, can you post a video of you managing to get turrets up vs several big worms with a simple 30 second activation delay? Without losing dozens of turrets.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Lav » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:15 am

Personally, when someone claims players are "supposed to do" something, I start looking for a gun.

So here's my challenge which should be extremely easy for all those who demand a turret creep nerf. Play this world WITHOUT resorting to turret creep. Weapons only when attacking enemy bases, just like the player is "supposed to do" (extremely sarcastic quotes intended).

For the record: it's a pretty typical world for my gameplays. A bit on the extreme side, but nothing extraordinary, I've already played a few like this.

Worldgen String
>>>AAAPACQAAAADBAcAAAAEAAAAY29hbAEEBQoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
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AAAAAAAAAEBIO2nG<<<


A cheaty hint for the easy mode on this map
Closest oil is to the west. Happy exploring.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Cribbit » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:57 am

Lav wrote:Personally, when someone claims players are "supposed to do" something, I start looking for a gun.

So here's my challenge which should be extremely easy for all those who demand a turret creep nerf. Play this world WITHOUT resorting to turret creep. Weapons only when attacking enemy bases, just like the player is "supposed to do" (extremely sarcastic quotes intended).

For the record: it's a pretty typical world for my gameplays. A bit on the extreme side, but nothing extraordinary, I've already played a few like this.

Worldgen String
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AAAAAAFEABAAAAAAAAPkABAAAAAAAAJEABAAAAAAAACEABCgAAAAFkA
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AAAAAAAAAEBIO2nG<<<


A cheaty hint for the easy mode on this map
Closest oil is to the west. Happy exploring.


You're saying players are "supposed" to use turret creep. Ironic, no?

Saying "use something other than turret creep" is the exact opposite of "player is 'supposed' to do" because there are about a dozen methods of damaging the enemy other than turrets. The point is you should have options for your playstyle, not feel inefficient because turret creep would have done it 2x faster.

The fact that turret creep is the only way to deal with the harder situations completely proves my point. You should have options, not be required to take one solution.

Also anything harder than default settings is supposed to be a challenge. It's totally ok for there to be very difficult game settings. That's the point of custom settings. Current combat outside of turret creep is (mostly) well balanced.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Koub » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:07 am

Cribbit wrote:
Lav wrote:Personally, when someone claims players are "supposed to do" something, I start looking for a gun.

So here's my challenge which should be extremely easy for all those who demand a turret creep nerf. Play this world WITHOUT resorting to turret creep. Weapons only when attacking enemy bases, just like the player is "supposed to do" (extremely sarcastic quotes intended).

For the record: it's a pretty typical world for my gameplays. A bit on the extreme side, but nothing extraordinary, I've already played a few like this.


A cheaty hint for the easy mode on this map
Closest oil is to the west. Happy exploring.


You're saying players are "supposed" to use turret creep. Ironic, no?

Saying "use something other than turret creep" is the exact opposite of "player is 'supposed' to do" because there are about a dozen methods of damaging the enemy other than turrets. The point is you should have options for your playstyle, not feel inefficient because turret creep would have done it 2x faster.

The fact that turret creep is the only way to deal with the harder situations completely proves my point. You should have options, not be required to take one solution.

Also anything harder than default settings is supposed to be a challenge. It's totally ok for there to be very difficult game settings. That's the point of custom settings. Current combat outside of turret creep is (mostly) well balanced.


I think there was a very slight touch of irony in that post. What Lav wrote meant : it would be extremely difficult - but not impossible - to play this map without any turret creep. But is was not said turret creep was the only combat option for all the map. If turret creep is an option, it should neither be :
1) the only viable option to do things
2) never the most viable option to do things
It should always be "one among others", and you should be able to choose which is the most optimal for a given situation.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

Postby Lav » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:44 am

Cribbit wrote:You're saying players are "supposed" to use turret creep. Ironic, no?

Nah, I'm saying there are situations where turret creep is still the only solution.

That you don't play games like that doesn't mean others don't. So your crusade against turret creep is effectively a crusade against other players who don't play the game the way you do.

Cribbit wrote:Saying "use something other than turret creep" is the exact opposite of "player is 'supposed' to do" because there are about a dozen methods of damaging the enemy other than turrets. The point is you should have options for your playstyle, not feel inefficient because turret creep would have done it 2x faster.

Sure thing. There's an easy solution for that. Boost pre-blue-science weapons. Because right now they're indeed inefficient compared to gun turrets, and there are situations when you need the offensive power that only gun turrets can provide, and you need that power before you have a chance to place even one oil pump.

You haven't played the game on all possible vanilla settings - I'm not even speaking about mods here - and yet you claim that some feature is "OP, plz nerf". But it's only overpowered in your gameplays, which are but a minority of the total. In other people's games, it's not turret creep that's overpowered, it's other solutions that are lacking.

Cribbit wrote:The fact that turret creep is the only way to deal with the harder situations completely proves my point. You should have options, not be required to take one solution.

Then why do you advocate nerfing the turrets instead of buffing other weapons? You contradict yourself here.

Cribbit wrote:Also anything harder than default settings is supposed to be a challenge. It's totally ok for there to be very difficult game settings. That's the point of custom settings. Current combat outside of turret creep is (mostly) well balanced.

Ah, but the funny thing is that I play on pretty relaxed settings compared to many other players. Roughly on the same level as the standard railworld actually. I don't turn off biter expansion, but I do use very big starting area which is a serious advantage, so it evens out in the end. So no, the provided map string isn't some extreme challenge, it's just slightly out of the norm on how far the closest oil is.
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